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Question: When did MA start using FA-10 forms?
- Thread starter erics506
- Start date
It was somewhere around 98. Before the FA10 was the "blue card". A blue index card that listed just basic info. Buyer/seller license #, address, make, model, caliber. It actually takes more effort to fill out the title of your car than it did to fill out a blue card. My son was born in 98 and IIRC the last time I used a blue card was right around then, maybe 99.
Somewhat wrong and not complete!
The FA-10 came about ~1968 when the FID also was created. They were used by dealers and were tissue-paper approx. 3.5"Hx8"W (2 copies) plus hard paper copy (this went to state) back then. Blue Cards were created for FTF transactions and Registrations at the same time.
In 1998 the blue cards went away and the 8.5x11 triple copy FA-10s were created for use by dealers and individuals.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
I was using the tissue paper ones back when most of you were still pissing your pants. Jack.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
ATF does not get the FA 10's ever nor the 4473s till the dealer throws in the towel. They do like to see some 4473s at audits. Jack.
aeromarine
NES Member
Actually, I think there was a short period when having an LTC exempted you from a NICS check. However, it went away as all good things sometimes do. Anybody know why?
Probably because there is some inconsistency with fed law on the issue. If your state's CCW (or equivalent) doesn't perfectly meet the federal criteria, it doesn't qualify. This is why there are only like a handful of states that use a CCW as a NICS bypass. Also since the permit term was increased to 6 years it will never qualify. (I think the fed reg is 5 year interval or less. ) so the whole thing is kinda moot.
-Mike
May not be complete, but definitely comprehensive and historic at this point.
Not really true. See below.
Actually said FRB Director/Retired ATF Agent gave all the boxes of FA-10s and blue cards (less ~30K that were water damaged and destroyed) to BATFE and contracted with them to create a database which was completed in very early 1998 (before the law passed). I got to see said database in Feb 1998 at a LE meeting. [My info came directly from said FRB Director.] So the records up to that time at least do indeed exist in the hands of BATFE (unless one believes that BATFE didn't keep a copy of their work).
Gee. I sure hope Dad filled out all the proper paperwork when he gave me his gun collection back in 1983.
Whutmeworry
NES Member
Said FRB director needs to be tried, sentenced and hanged for multiple federal firearms law violations.
And PRECISELY what "multiple federal firearms law violations" would those be?
Serious question!
I'm not aware of any law prohibiting one org from contracting with another org to computerize records. Since allegedly both orgs employees are vetted for background checks, it makes more sense than contracting to some firm in India to od it.
I'm not saying that I like the fact that they did this, just that I don't see any law violations for what they did. And for the record . . . the data we were shown at our LE meeting might have been dummy info for demonstration purposes only. We weren't looking people up, he showed one record, that's all.
Whutmeworry
NES Member
I guess I didn't read your post carefully enough before I posted. It occurs to me now that we're talking about FA-10s and not 4473s. Computerizing 4473s into a centralized database - unless I'm mistaken - is a violation of federal law.
Or is it?
Or is it?
You wish it was. BATFE aggregates data all the time. What do you think they do with the records they get when a dealer closes, just incinerate them? They go into a warehouse somewhere, and at this point I would be surprised if they weren't OCRed into a database when they enter said warehouse. Also, what do you think happens to an MHP form when the ATF gets one from your dealer? Do you think they just shred it after they're done "looking" at it?
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
The only thing that is blocked at all legally is the long-term retention of NICS check data, which is pretty much worthless anyways.
-Mike
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xtry51
NES Member
The government is trying to collect every piece of Internet traffic that occurs. The idea they don't have an electronic database of gun records from states, legally or illegally obtained is laughable.
You can pretty much guarantee Homeland has a rough gun ownership list of any official transaction you've ever made and any gun part you've ever purchased online, and that they've cross referenced that list with what you say online, text your friends and say during phone calls.
You can pretty much guarantee Homeland has a rough gun ownership list of any official transaction you've ever made and any gun part you've ever purchased online, and that they've cross referenced that list with what you say online, text your friends and say during phone calls.
Whutmeworry
NES Member
I was afraid that might be the real answer. Makes me wish even more that I became an adult back in the 50s...in enough time to amass a collection before passage of the GCA.
![[sad]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/004.gif "Sad [sad]")
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Whutmeworry
NES Member
I've never been under any illusion that they don't have (or at least are compiling) a centralized list. And I'm also not under any illusion that there are many people left in government who even care about the rule of law anymore. I was just curious as to whether or not there were laws on the books expressly prohibiting the permanent recording and/or centralization of firearms purchase records (not that they'd be followed).[sad2]
warwickben
bubba Kalashnikov
My understanding was if the FFl goes belly up , they send the 4473's to the ATF and they just store them . There not suppose to file then by person etc .
Gun turns up in crime. They back track it from the manufacture to the dealer . Once they realize xyz dealer sent all the 4473 they go looking for it.
Few months ago NPR had a ATF agent on explaining this is why it takes some time to start tracking a gun etc .
A friend sold a gun ftf that traded hands after that deal and was used in a crime .
It took the ATF 5 days after the crime to contact him . Odd thing was the state police called and asked him to come from nh to mass the crime happened in mass. The police told him he needed to come in about a hit and run .
He walked in and the ATF started asking him questions and let him go once he showed him a bill of sales he wrote to his uncle for It.
Gun turns up in crime. They back track it from the manufacture to the dealer . Once they realize xyz dealer sent all the 4473 they go looking for it.
Few months ago NPR had a ATF agent on explaining this is why it takes some time to start tracking a gun etc .
A friend sold a gun ftf that traded hands after that deal and was used in a crime .
It took the ATF 5 days after the crime to contact him . Odd thing was the state police called and asked him to come from nh to mass the crime happened in mass. The police told him he needed to come in about a hit and run .
He walked in and the ATF started asking him questions and let him go once he showed him a bill of sales he wrote to his uncle for It.
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I wouldn't go full tinfoil yet, but I don't disagree that is the end game of the feds- it's only a matter of time. Particularly given the details of the programs that Snowden told the world about... and that new huge, like 1.5 billion dollar datacenter that the NSA has, if anyone believes that's only for snooping on foreign muzzies/towelheads/durkas, I have a nice bridge to sell them.
-Mike
BATFE was not supposed to have a "computerized database" of these records but I find it really hard to believe that they can't/don't scan them into some kind of a database or a document management system as they come in.
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Tracing_Center
-Mike
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xtry51
NES Member
Even if they don't, you know for sure the NSA is.
And the patriot act basically makes that distinction meaningless.
warwickben
bubba Kalashnikov
I believe I read that at some point they would be aloud to scan but it would be stored by FFl / serial number vs the person who bought it from the store etc . I belive it came after Katrina that it was easier and cheaper to scan what was saved from water damage vs trying to maintain the paper copy's .
warwickben
bubba Kalashnikov
My friend is a pretty crazy dude and normally would of told them to F off.
But he had a court date coming up he didn't want to have problems with. We both thought it was messed up the cops lied to him saying they wanted to talk about a hit and run .
This subject has come up a few times since I've been here and this has to be the best thread on the subject. Very informative.
Should be stickied.
Should be stickied.
jaypap
NES Member
Len I have tissue paper ones FA-10 but I have a later Blue Card numbered FA-1. I don't know when they changed but mine is from the eighties.
I'm not going to bother digging for them, but I have a few that I filled out over time. No idea if the form numbers changed further and when/what they were other than this one which is the only blank one I have and scanned in for a prior NES post.
