Police chief, gun club indicted in boy’s Uzi death

[EddieCoyle]

Me three and I guaranty with this news the current board of my club will never approve anything like an NES shoot.

Board schmoard... If they're going after the guy that organized it, it would be my ass on the line if someone got shot at a Pumpkin Shoot or something. I'm going to have to have a long talk with a lawyer before I organize another shoot.

 

[terraformer]

The family was assured that licensed instructors would be supervising the shooters. I think it is a reasonable for the father to assume that the instructors would ensure safety.

I don't think it is reasonable to expect the father to understand that it would be almost impossible for an 8-year-old to control the recoil of a micro-Uzi. He saw that the gun was small and thought that would be easier for his son to handle than a larger gun, not knowing that the smaller gun would be difficult to control.

Which is why we have tort law, to provide remedies for negligence. People's issues with this are not the presence of negligence, but was the negligence such that it rose to the level of criminal negligence. The latter being something that rise to the level of needing justice for the people (collective) as opposed to the former which is good for metting out justice, in the form of compensation, for the parties affected. If the parties affected desired no award (which to date no evidence of a lawsuit is pending or desired) then nothing would happen on the civil negligence side. I suspect the lack of lawsuit talk from the parents made this imperative to the moonbats that they needed to find a criminal path forward. Not that they needed any motivation.

 

[jdubois]

The laws appear to me to conflict.

The laws are pretty clear. § 130 states "whoever sells or furnishes [...] person under eighteen years of age a [...] machine gun [...] shall be punished". There is no other text in that section or any other section which exempts this statement. Yes, there are sections allowing minors to use shotguns and rifles, allowing target practice and hunting, etc. But there is nothing anywhere that says they can be furnished a machine gun in spite of § 130.

 

[jdubois]

This one won't apply because regardless if the owner was certified or not, he was not supervising, the indictment says someone else was. So contradiction in law could likely be a defense if the contradiction was in play, but here it appears not.

There's no contradiction anyway. The exemption is talking about rifles and shotguns. Machine guns are (legally, per § 121) not rifles nor shotguns.

 

[Mikey]

Board schmoard... If they're going after the guy that organized it, it would be my ass on the line if someone got shot at a Pumpkin Shoot or something. I'm going to have to have a long talk with a lawyer before I organize another shoot.

I hear you and the last thing we would want is for you to get screwed.

 

[terraformer]

There's no contradiction anyway. The exemption is talking about rifles and shotguns. Machine guns are (legally, per § 121) not rifles nor shotguns.

Didn't know that they had a specific definition that precluded the other. Either way, even if it said MGs, it would have been moot based on what was above. Seems as though handguns would be out to though. Damn, so many parent let their kids shoot those.

 

[M1911]

Didn't know that they had a specific definition that precluded the other. Either way, even if it said MGs, it would have been moot based on what was above. Seems as though handguns would be out to though. Damn, so many parent let their kids shoot those.

Terraformer, I posted it previously:

whoever sells or furnishes any alien or any person under eighteen years of age a ... machine gun ... shall be punished by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000, or by imprisonment in a state prison for not more than ten years or by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than two and one-half years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=674435&postcount=26

 

[M1911]

I suspect the lack of lawsuit talk from the parents made this imperative to the moonbats that they needed to find a criminal path forward. Not that they needed any motivation.

I disagree. Civil suits are often filed after criminal proceedings have completed. This was going to happen whether the parents filed suit or not.

 

[maee]

I believe in Mass law that a machine gun is completely separate from a rifle or shotgun or pistol by definition. It is an entirely different class of arm. The regular LTC/FID law for rifles and pistols cannot be consulted.

 

[stinx]

think about if soembody got hurt at an IDPA match- sounds like they could go after the match organizers to me.THis thing sounds like a can of worms is about to be opened

 

[dwarven1]

Unfortunately, the MGL is very confusing on this issue. I am aware of three sections in the law concerning minors and shooting, and those three sections conflict.

Chapter 140 S130 says it is legal to provide a minor with a rifle or shotgun for instruction, but it forbids letting a minor shoot a machine gun (among other things):

I had a chat with a gunstore owner this week about this. Said FFL is NOT your typical FFL without a clue but keeps the laws handy, and this was the the exact law he showed me that he said was going to be used for a charge of involuntary manslaughter. This was on Tuesday night. Said FFL got his info from Ron Glidden, so I'll freely admit it's second hand.

Board schmoard... If they're going after the guy that organized it, it would be my ass on the line if someone got shot at a Pumpkin Shoot or something. I'm going to have to have a long talk with a lawyer before I organize another shoot.

I really hate this state.

Hampden District Attorney William M. Bennett is plain and simple trying to get publicity to help him run for higher office. He could care less about the 8 year old; it's just a ploy. Needless to say, we're taking it up the poop chute (or is that shoot?) because of it.
[sad2]

 

[jairadio]

Of course the state of MA was going to pursue this.

All the adults in this incident were to blame for the death of this young child. Who else caused it?

At one time in my life, I carried a fully auto M-16 24/7, and believe me fired it many times. As a adult, I would notice how this firearm wanted to go its own way, and you really had to work at it to maintain control.

Like many others here, I have never shot or even seen the uzi mentioned in this unfortunate story.

But handing it to a 8 year old, I can't see any responsibility in play at all.

This thing is going to be huge, the anti's are going to convert those that have no opinion either way regarding gun ownership, into their way of thinking.

I also think, this is not only going to affect MA but a lot of other states nation wide.

As said many times over and over, we gun owners allow the attacks we receive, through the negligence of other gun owners.

The NES group had a wonderful pumpkin shoot recently without any incidents, well run by the host and all those that attended. And I am sure if anyone violated any safety rules, they would have been removed from the firing line and asked to leave. This will not make the headlines.

I am sure the Chief of Police's Association is discussing this and changes will be made to the MGL's, as if we need more control.

In reality, this is a very unfortunate incident that is going to affect all law abiding gun owners, sorry to say.

Only my opinion. As I was not there, thank God.

This story sucks and should never have happened.

 

[Big_Red]

Me three and I guaranty with this news the current board of my club will never approve anything like an NES shoot.

Is that Nenameseck?

Board schmoard... If they're going after the guy that organized it, it would be my ass on the line if someone got shot at a Pumpkin Shoot or something. I'm going to have to have a long talk with a lawyer before I organize another shoot.

So then what is the point of signing a waiver? Depending how it is worded shouldn't that be enough of a protection in case of an accident?

 

[Roadblock]

Looks pretty clear to me:
1) It is illegal to provide a minor with a machine gun
2) Sheriff provided minor with a machine gun (this was a crime)
3) Club hosted the event but did not provide the gun (no crime)

Minor then loses control of machine gun and shoot self/dies...horrible.

Because the Sheriff provided a firearm to a minor (illegally) the minor died...and now its just another case of bad publicity for gun owners.

 

[C-pher]

Board schmoard... If they're going after the guy that organized it, it would be my ass on the line if someone got shot at a Pumpkin Shoot or something. I'm going to have to have a long talk with a lawyer before I organize another shoot.

This is what I was thinking as well....I wondered if others were going to think like this...

I have a feeling that this will be a wide spread feeling...and there's going to be a shortage of NES Hosted Shoots.

 

[Underwhere]

Can anyone find William Bennett's email? I can't seem to find it.

I think I will be voicing my opinion to him.

Complaining online doesn't accomplish too much. Maybe just unified bickering but if it's not "bickered" at the right people then it's never heard.

SORRY TO POST IN ALL CAPS BUT SINCE THE FATHER ALLOWED HIS SON TO SHOOT IS HE BEING CHARGED WITH MANSLAUGHTER TOO!

Err. Do you have online Turrets syndrome?
You knew it was all caps and bold and larger font, yet you continued to post like that?

The father is not going to be charged.

 

[vellnueve]

Waivers are nice, but ultimately useless.

 

[EddieCoyle]

So then what is the point of signing a waiver? Depending how it is worded shouldn't that be enough of a protection in case of an accident?

Right. How's that working out for Westfield?

 

[Roadblock]

You also cannot "sign away the rights of a minor"...the kid was 8.

 

[C-pher]

Right. How's that working out for Westfield?

How's the insurance working out for them as well? That's only going to helpful when the Civil Suit comes a knocking...

So even if we all pitched in for NES Shoot Insurance....it wouldn't mean crap for the club if something happened...and they would just go after whomever took out the insurance.

This is going to suck....have I said that before????

 

[M1911]

So then what is the point of signing a waiver? Depending how it is worded shouldn't that be enough of a protection in case of an accident?

Waivers don't stop criminal prosecution. Waivers also won't stop a civil suit -- a good plaintiff's attorney will find a way around the waiver. Waivers are a legal fig leaf. Better than nothing, but not a whole lot of protection for the sensitive bits.

 

[Mike-Mike]

So the next pumpkin shoot will will all have to become members of SRG for one day and just happen to all bring pumpkins?

 

[BCEagleAce]

Un-be-fuking-leaveable!!!

This is politique at its finest (worst). How can the father of this boy hand him the actual gun and not be deemed responsible for anything? Are we really so f***ing stupid in this country? They aren't even trying to hide the fact that this is just a blatant anti-gun bit of grandstanding.

 

[EddieCoyle]

All I can say is that I hope all the kids had a good time at the last one. Non LTC holders too.

 

[Mikey]

Is that Nenameseck?

Yeah, admittedly I did not bring up the idea of an NES shoot but the president of the board said "I hate pumpkin shooters" when talking about acceptable targets for the range and they are vary nervous about being seen as a "commercial" club and not a private one.

Needless to say they don't come off as being keen to the idea, not to mention the Ware Chief of Police was at the last meeting to talk about the Westfield incident and the board was very concerned how this outcome would affect them.

If things smooth over and I get more of a presents at the club I may bring up the idea but I think it will be shot down quite quickly.

 

[M1911]

How can the father of this boy hand him the actual gun and not be deemed responsible for anything?

Huh? It wasn't the father's gun. The gun was handed to the boy by the instructor who was supposed to be supervising the boy.

 

[edirtyfour]

"A Micro Uzi is made by and for the Israeli Armed Forces and is intended to meet the needs of the Israeli Special Forces," Bennett said. "It is not a hunting weapon."

Since when was the purpose of lawfully owned weapons for hunting purposes only?

 

[Mikey]

All I can say is that I hope all the kids had a good time at the last one. Non LTC holders too.

Probably the right move.

 

[terraformer]

"A Micro Uzi is made by and for the Israeli Armed Forces and is intended to meet the needs of the Israeli Special Forces," Bennett said. "It is not a hunting weapon."

Since when was the purpose of lawfully owned weapons for hunting purposes only?

Say it enough times, people will begin to believe it.

 

[Bob P]

Involuntary manslaughter is basically 'criminal stupidity that gets someone killed'. They are alleging that the defendants used such poor judgement in their actions that it rose to the level of a crime. At this point whether they did or not is up to a jury to decide.

Politically motivated? Yah, you betcha. You can tell by the fact he didn't ask for an indictment of the father - he's not pulling in anyone that might be a sympathetic defendant.