Picking your brain on AK47 Yugo Zastava N-PAP

[Livefreeormass]

I am offered this NIB at $800 with a 30 round mag. It is an all polymer model by CAI. Please share your knowledge on this gun. Thanks!

 

[KMS]

Caliber?

 

[Livefreeormass]

Caliber?

Caliber is X39.

 

[KMS]

$800 is ok...per the norm these days.

 

[Livefreeormass]

Any of you folks have first hand or second hand experience with this ak?

 

[vicpinto]

http://www.ak47world.com/rifles.html

Or the current 'Bastardized' Yugo PAP AK's (above) with narrow trunnions that are cut into to allow Hi-Cap mags from their narrow single-stack mag imported configuration by $$$ hungry Century Arms - who sells AK's where 'REAL Military AK Arsenals' don't produce 100% of the finished AK rifles they sell (as opposed to AK's 100% produced in the factories of Norinco, Poly-Tech, Izhmash, F.E.G., Maadi, Arsenal of Bulgaria, Cugir & Zastava) !!
AK BLOGGER:

I have not seen any converted PAPs. The conversion is not as simple as it might seem.

The rear of the receiver is slant cut. While the PAP will accept standard M70 furniture, you have the cosmetic issues of the slant to deal with.

The rifle also has a narrow front trunnion that will accept single stacked mags only. Not only will you have to cut the receiver opening for the double stacked mags, you will have to machine the trunnion to accept the double stackers as well.

I have no intention of weakening a PAP Front trunnion by milling it to accept standard 'Double-Stack' AK Mags, and if someone else does it they'll weaken their PAP's trunnion drastically & severely shorten its life.

I want an AK bad but I would not buy a PAP.

This website leaves a lot to be desired as far as formatting is concerned but I think the guy makes some valid points.

 

[Gastrok]

I am offered this NIB at $800 with a 30 round mag. It is an all polymer model by CAI. Please share your knowledge on this gun. Thanks!

Are you saying the mag is all polymer? If so, it's probably not MA-legal. I'm familiar with the Zastava PAP, and the only plastic on the thing is the grip.

The rifles have been modified to take a double-stack mag, even though the bolt is intended for a single-stack mag. This has been known to cause some failure to feed issues. CAI apparently has a fix for this, but I'm not sure what it entails. In any case $800 is about right.

 

[flintoid]

http://www.ak47world.com/rifles.html



I want an AK bad but I would buy a PAP.

This website leaves a lot to be desired as far as formatting is concerned but I think the guy makes some valid points.

the bottom rear of the front trunnion does need to be milled to accept a high capacity mag. Who does the milling work, you might ask? CAI does, that's who.

Granted, like you said, the website lacks because it.... lacks. Who is saying that the trunnion is "weakened?" One way you could think of it is this: they are removing excess material that is not there on a regular AKM trunnion. The original PAP trunnion was made so that it had excess material in comparison to the original Yugo trunnions. And trunnions are machined.

So if the trunnion is properly supported, you're basically machining a trunnion. Which happens in the factory, anyways.

But you could digress and say that CAI is full of hammer tossing monkeys who don't know shit about AK assembly. And this would be backed up by horror stories from Christmas past from crappy WASR conversions. And they'd be right. But CAI has cleaned up a LOT in the recent years.


The only concern you should really have is "what bolt does my PAP have in it." Because this is what counts. PAP bolts have a tiny lug meant for tiny, narrow single stack mags. Yugo M70 bolt have a big lug for stripping rounds out of a normal sized double stack mag.

If you are stripping rounds out of a double stack mag with a pencil dick of a bolt lug, you're gonna have issues. And I've seen PAP bolts in "converted" PAPs, and that made my dick turtle.

Look for a Yugo M70 bolt if you buy a PAP that's been converted. Maybe they come with them now? Maybe not. And if they don't- go buy a Yugo m70 bolt, or any other normal AKM bolt in the 7.62x39 flavor.

 

[Gastrok]

the bottom rear of the front trunnion does need to be milled to accept a high capacity mag. Who does the milling work, you might ask? CAI does, that's who.

Granted, like you said, the website lacks because it.... lacks. Who is saying that the trunnion is "weakened?" One way you could think of it is this: they are removing excess material that is not there on a regular AKM trunnion. The original PAP trunnion was made so that it had excess material in comparison to the original Yugo trunnions. And trunnions are machined.

So if the trunnion is properly supported, you're basically machining a trunnion. Which happens in the factory, anyways.

But you could digress and say that CAI is full of hammer tossing monkeys who don't know shit about AK assembly. And this would be backed up by horror stories from Christmas past from crappy WASR conversions. And they'd be right. But CAI has cleaned up a LOT in the recent years.


The only concern you should really have is "what bolt does my PAP have in it." Because this is what counts. PAP bolts have a tiny lug meant for tiny, narrow single stack mags. Yugo M70 bolt have a big lug for stripping rounds out of a normal sized double stack mag.

If you are stripping rounds out of a double stack mag with a pencil dick of a bolt lug, you're gonna have issues. And I've seen PAP bolts in "converted" PAPs, and that made my dick turtle.

Look for a Yugo M70 bolt if you buy a PAP that's been converted. Maybe they come with them now? Maybe not. And if they don't- go buy a Yugo m70 bolt, or any other normal AKM bolt in the 7.62x39 flavor.

I have had issues with mine and would gladly pay $$ to get some help to resolve them. Probably hard to get an M70 bolt, but even harder (for me) to check/adjust the head space.

I could send it back to CAI, but honestly I'd trust one of the AK experts here more than CAI.

 

[40 caliber]

$800 is ok...per the norm these days.

Shooter's outpost in Hookset NH had the PAP for $749 and had only a couple left last weekend. $800 with the gas money from where you are in Mass is probably the same. it came with 2 30 round mags. I have no idea if that means it is not mass compliant or what.

 

[7.62x39]

Anything by Century is bottom of the barrel. AK forums are full of horror stories regarding their junk.

 

[flintoid]

I have had issues with mine and would gladly pay $$ to get some help to resolve them. Probably hard to get an M70 bolt, but even harder (for me) to check/adjust the head space.

I could send it back to CAI, but honestly I'd trust one of the AK experts here more than CAI.

what issues have you had? It's important to know if your issues are a result of the strange PAP bolt.

Anything by Century is bottom of the barrel. AK forums are full of horror stories regarding their junk.

agreed. But I think they've cleaned up a bit, recently. I've seen some of their WASRs and, at the least of those, they've gotten better at converting those.

How does that saying go? It takes 10 years to build a reputation but 10 minutes to destroy one. I think they started rough, but they're in that "10 year" building stage where, if they keep their nose clean, they could be considered good once again.

Then again, maybe these recent PAP conversions are proof positive that they're still up to their same shitty ways. LOL

 

[Gastrok]

what issues have you had? It's important to know if your issues are a result of the strange PAP bolt.

I have assumed the failure to feed issues are due to the single stack bolt, but I could be wrong. What happens is a round is stripped from the mag but it gets jammed about half-way into the chamber at an steep angle and won't go fully in to battery. It seems to happen randomly but with enough frequency to send me home from the range frustrated. I may go an entire 30 round mag with no issues or have it happen 5 times in a row. Any ideas?

 

[flintoid]

It certainly could be the bolt. Or it could be the mag height in the receiver. Or it could be the magazine (lug size/height, feed lips (where the round "comes out"). Or it could be the feed ramp. Or it could be the ammo (hollow points).

But it could be the bolt. Best way to check would be to find a normal yugo m70 7.62x39 bolt and give it a whirl. If the lugs are the same "depth" (length wise of the bolt) odds are you won't have headspace issues. I've found that most of my bolts are interchangable while keeping pretty good headspace, or "close enough" headspace.

So it wouldn't hurt. Unless the PAP bolt lugs are so short, or hacked by CAI, or strange that a m70 or other AKM bolt wouldn't work.

here's a thread of someone having similar issues. He bought a m70 carrier and bolt (carrier on accident, so it probably isn't needed) and then sent it off to a place to "get it to work." It appears that they only lowered the feeding ramp to accept the new bolt (ground it down). you can kind of see it in the pictures.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_89/144127_Does_the_yugo_pap_work_as_it_.html

So it looks like there's more work involved than just doing up a new m70 bolt. Not sure if just any old AKM 7.62x39 bolt would work. It might? Yugo bolts have thicker ejector slots through the bolt face and bolt due to the thicker sheet metal used on the receiver of a yugo rifle, so you'd have to hogg that out appropriately.

 

[flintoid]

and if a shop only charged $50 to "get it to work" I can guarantee you that they didn't have to do much work on it at all.

So this is something you could probably do yourself. Get a Yugo M70 bolt, and grind down the feed ramp a little bit until it works.

 

[NHCraigT]

I think it may be a CIA Yugo M70 AB2

Example - (Old Link with Old Price): http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1CM70AB2T&groupid=11

....Century International Arms Manufactured M70AB2T semi-automatic 7.62x39 caliber Rifles. Based on the Yugoslavian M70 Paratrooper Rifle. This Rifle is built using refinished original Yugoslavian M70 parts, a New Century Arms 1mm receiver, and New US chrome-moly (non chrome-lined) 1:9 twist barrel. Includes 2 30rd magazines & grenade launching muzzle device....

Another Example (Old Link with Old Price): http://www.discountgunsales.com/century-yugoslavian-m70ab2-syn-pr-4269.html

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zastava_M70B

 

[flintoid]

PAPs are NOT m70's. And they are NOT CAI Yugo M70 AB2s. Those are built off of Yugo AK kits that are as dead as Stalin. They might still make them, but they'll have US barrels now a days. You'd also see Yugo parts kits (depopulated) floating around if they went back to making them as they'd have imported a bunch.

You are mistaken.

 

[Livefreeormass]

Are you saying the mag is all polymer? If so, it's probably not MA-legal. I'm familiar with the Zastava PAP, and the only plastic on the thing is the grip.

The rifles have been modified to take a double-stack mag, even though the bolt is intended for a single-stack mag. This has been known to cause some failure to feed issues. CAI apparently has a fix for this, but I'm not sure what it entails. In any case $800 is about right.

The handguard, pistol grip and buttstock are polymer. All other parts are metal. I missed the deal but it's ok. I've got other black guns, not having to buy into panic.

 

[Gastrok]

and if a shop only charged $50 to "get it to work" I can guarantee you that they didn't have to do much work on it at all.

So this is something you could probably do yourself. Get a Yugo M70 bolt, and grind down the feed ramp a little bit until it works.

Thanks flintoid - I'm trying to track one down now. The only lead I have right now is Two Rivers Arms and they may be out of stock.

 

[atilla]

obligatory CAI memes:

 

[Gastrok]

^LOL

 

[40 caliber]

Shooter's outpost in Hookset NH had the PAP for $749 and had only a couple left last weekend. $800 with the gas money from where you are in Mass is probably the same. it came with 2 30 round mags. I have no idea if that means it is not mass compliant or what.

Correction, i was just there again. price increases from the distributor (as he just got new ones in) have pushed the price up $100+++

$800 now is a good deal for a PAP. whether you are still willing to buy one reading all this is another thing

 

[Jppilot95]

Or the current 'Bastardized' Yugo PAP AK's (above) with narrow trunnions that are cut into to allow Hi-Cap mags from their narrow single-stack mag imported configuration by $$$ hungry Century Arms - who sells AK's where 'REAL Military AK Arsenals' don't produce 100% of the finished AK rifles they sell (as opposed to AK's 100% produced in the factories of Norinco, Poly-Tech, Izhmash, F.E.G., Maadi, Arsenal of Bulgaria, Cugir & Zastava) !!
AK BLOGGER:

I have not seen any converted PAPs. The conversion is not as simple as it might seem.

The rear of the receiver is slant cut. While the PAP will accept standard M70 furniture, you have the cosmetic issues of the slant to deal with.

The rifle also has a narrow front trunnion that will accept single stacked mags only. Not only will you have to cut the receiver opening for the double stacked mags, you will have to machine the trunnion to accept the double stackers as well.

I have no intention of weakening a PAP Front trunnion by milling it to accept standard 'Double-Stack' AK Mags, and if someone else does it they'll weaken their PAP's trunnion drastically & severely shorten its life.

This is not true of the N-PAP rifles. I own one, the receiver is not slant cut, it accepts double stack mags and has the double stack bolt. It fires great and is definitely not the same as the PAP rifle ak47 world talks about. Ill try to upload some pics.

 

[Da_lucche]

I bought my PAP from EAA before CAI bought them all out. I had it converted from single stack to double stack by matt yeamans. Matt did an awesome job and the rifle has never let me down. Ill never get rid of it.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

 

[flintoid]

This is not true of the N-PAP rifles. I own one, the receiver is not slant cut, it accepts double stack mags and has the double stack bolt. It fires great and is definitely not the same as the PAP rifle ak47 world talks about. Ill try to upload some pics.

please do. I doubt it has the double stack bolt but would love to see that they're changing them out, now.

 

[Jppilot95]

Sorry for the upside down pics, I used my iPhone to upload them and it was enough of a pain as it was. As you can see ive changed the grip and handguard. It originally had a handguard made out of the same material as the stock. Nothing appears to have been cut or removed to accept the double stack mag.

 

[flintoid]

yup, that's a "double stack" bolt. Good deal!

 

[Gastrok]

ooh so jealous!

 

[Kisspik002]

just picked up one of these N paps for 590. I didnt want a WASR and this was the next best thing in my price range. Fit and finish are quite good. It came with polymer furniture, slant break, and accepts double stack mags. The mag well doesnt looked butchered at all, rather clean edges. The front sight post is over to the right, but I believe that can be fixed. I def liked my SGL21 by Arsenal, the overall quality was much better, but this N pap will be a fun range gun that I am happy with. Compared to the WASR i believe the N or O paps are a better AK.

 

[mikelawtown]

just picked up one of these N paps for 590. I didnt want a WASR and this was the next best thing in my price range. Fit and finish are quite good. It came with polymer furniture, slant break, and accepts double stack mags. The mag well doesnt looked butchered at all, rather clean edges. The front sight post is over to the right, but I believe that can be fixed. I def liked my SGL21 by Arsenal, the overall quality was much better, but this N pap will be a fun range gun that I am happy with. Compared to the WASR i believe the N or O paps are a better AK.

where did you get it? I'm looking to add one to my O-Pap--->