Para or S&W 1911 for IDPA

[zerodown]

Hi Guys,

I want to get into competitive shooting next year and was wondering if anyone had an opinion on which 1911 to start with. Guns I'm looking at are Para 14.45, PX745E or a S&W stainless. I'll be shooting stock to start so was wondering if you guys thought one gun was more accurate out of the box than another - or if you have any other suggestions for a $900 (or less) 1911, I'm all ears. I could also use a recommendation for a holster as well.

 

[GTOShootr]

The Para P16.40 would be a better caliber choice over a .45. A little cheaper to feed and flatter shooting. In addition to IDPA ESP, it would work for USPSA Limited with hi-caps or a variety of steel shoots with lighter loads.

TKW holsters from www.mle-shootingsports.com are really nice, fit the rules, and are made by a top IDPA competitor.

 

[abundigas]

I have a Para PX745E that Shoots Awsome right out of the box. I love the gun, but I have not Shot a New S&W so could not speak for it.

 

[Supermoto]

I shot a S&W1911 in L-10 USPSA, it was accurate and reliable. I have not shot the Para.

Reliability is most important, with accuracy being second. I have alot of rounds through my S&W with the only malfunction coming from bad reloads or dirty Mags

 

[PistolPete]

The S&W 1911's are great guns as are the Paras. I would prob. prefer the Para for the fact it is a .40 which is cheaper to feed and the fact you can get high cap mags for it. I would think the Para would have more uses avail. As Steve mentioned you could also shoot Limited division or limited 10 in USPSA as well.

 

[Ah2BFlyn]

I'm in a similar situation and have been looking at the Para Ordnance Tac Five which qualifies for all IDPA stages.

 

[dwarven1]

I shoot a Para P12 AND a SW1911 for IDPA - I find that I can get back on target for followup shots faster with the fullsize 1911 than with the P12, but I'd not hesitate to use either one. They're both accurate and utterly reliable.

 

[P-14]

I like the full-sized Para in .45 ACP. Mine is the single action model, so I can shoot either shoot IDPA CDP or ESP with it. The gun is far more accurate at 25 yards that I will ever be freestyle. I put some night sights on it and it is kick-ass for low light competition, too.

The gun makes big holes and lots of 'em! Go for the full-sized Para if you like to shoot .45.

 

[TY43215]

Shoot a revolver.

 

[Dan S]

Shoot a revolver.

One of those gamer 8 shot wheelies???

 

[zerodown]

thanks for the suggestions and feedback. GTOShootr - do you know what a P16.40 retails for in MA?

 

[M1911]

I have an early P14-45. Based on my experiences with that gun, I recommend against ParaOrdnance and will not buy another. YMMV.

 

[GTOShootr]

I haven't the faintest idea what they go for new. I think Northeast Trading in North Attleboro had one the last time was in. The price of a used one would be dependent on mags.

I do agree that Paras can be hit or miss. Some people seem to get ones that run great, others have nothing but trouble. Whatever you get, you need a trigger job by a pro.

 

[MAShooter]

Remember, if one of your goals is to shoot it in IDPA, it must fit the requirements:

CDP: max unloaded weight of 41oz (including the mag), be .45ACP caliber, fit in a box 8 3/4" x 6" x 1 5/8" with the mag inserted.

ESP: max unloaded weight of 43oz (including the mag), be at least 9x19mm caliber and fit into the above mentioned box.

For a complete listing, check the IDPA rule book (www.idpa.com)

Just an observation of many IDPA matches that I've been involved with, I have not seen that many Para's being used. Yes there are some, but most CDP shooters are using something of a traditional 1911 design.

 

[GTOShootr]

Dave's right. I forgot about the weight. JKelly would know. I think it just makes it but a singlestack is a safe bet.

 

[jkelly]

Actually, I don’t know the weight of the P16-40 but I think it’s less then the stainless S&W1911. I never used my P16-40 in IDPA as I put an ICE mag-well on it when I bought it (would not even think about fitting in the box).

I don’t know if the P16-40 in single action is available new but I think Northeast Trading has a used P16-40 with a bunch of Hi Caps for about $1000. I think it’s been tricked out and may not be IDPA legal anyway.

GTOShootr makes a couple of very good points. But, if I were to pick between only the three pistols you asked about I’d pick the S&W1911. I have a P16-40 (for USPSA Limited and Limited-10), a Para C745 (for no good reason other then you can’t get them) and a S&W 1911 (for IDPA CDP).

I loved shooting my S&W 1911 in IDPA and if it hadn’t developed a problem (FTE, which I understand is do to it being an early model) I’d still be shooting it.

That said I still think that my S&W 1911 is a much higher quality firearm then my two Paras (which are not the Paras you asked about) and out shoots them hands down (when I’m driving them anyway). But as Steve says, .45 ACP is expensive ammunition.

I think P-14 has experience with both the P14-45 and the PX745E so if you decide on a Para (the newer Paras look better made then my old guns) he could give in sight into how those compare.

I’d suggest that you go to both USPSA and IDPA matches, ask questions and decide which sport you are most interested (if you haven’t already). Purchase your equipment for that sport.

9mm is fun and light, .40 S&W is snappy, .45 ACP is slow but forgiving.

You have three very knowledge shooters in RGS, GTOShootr, and MAshooter (who’s brains I pick on shooting) answering you questions, but be wary of RGS he’ll have you hanging moon clips off your belt and reloading every three seconds.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[scottb]

jneumann,

I know my suggestion will require more money than you've specified, but please consider saving a few extra dollars now, and purchase a STI or Infinity in 40 S&W, later. With a standard dust cover and bushing barrel it will make the weight and fit the IDPA box with 126mm mags for ESP class. With 140mm mags you have a very competitive USPSA pistol in Limited or Limited 10. You have bullet weights available of 135, 155, 165, 180, and 200 grains. You can load (or buy) 40S&W mild to wild, and it is very accurate cartridge. If I'd listened to this advice from a friend 10 years ago, I'd wouldn't have a beautiful custom Springfield 45 sitting in my safe that I never shoot. The STI or Infinity are great platforms for pistols and are very flexible. There are a gunsmiths that can even fit a 9mm barrel to a 40 slide.

As jkelly suggested: go to pistol matches and watch the good shooters and check out what they shoot. I know they'll be glad to talk to you about their gear. If you're new to competitve shooting, use what you've got until you can afford what you really want. You'll perform better ultimately - and you'll never be sorry buying the best.

 

[Gammon]

I own a couple of Para P-16 40s that are both accurate and reliable. Too bad I had to build both of them from the ground up. I also own a Para LDA Carry Model in .45 that I have had problems with (cracked slide) and want to get rid of. Para fixed the slide, but it cost me $60 in shipping, and they were a little iffy on the repairs ("Send us the gun and we will see if we will replace the slide"). I will never buy another new Para.

 

[jkelly]

...have a beautiful custom Springfield 45 sitting in my safe that I never shoot. ---ScottB

Really, tell us more.

Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[GTOShootr]

As jkelly suggested: go to pistol matches and watch the good shooter and check out what they shoot. I know they'll be glad to talk to you about there gear. If you're new to competitve shooting, use what you've got until you can afford what you really want. You'll perform better ultimately - and you'll never be sorry buying the best.

+1

 

[Will Brink]

Hi Guys,

I want to get into competitive shooting next year and was wondering if anyone had an opinion on which 1911 to start with. Guns I'm looking at are Para 14.45, PX745E or a S&W stainless. I'll be shooting stock to start so was wondering if you guys thought one gun was more accurate out of the box than another - or if you have any other suggestions for a $900 (or less) 1911, I'm all ears. I could also use a recommendation for a holster as well.

I have had two SnW's and both were great out of the box. I shoot either my custom Caspian commander or SnW government which I had some thin grips and fiber optics sites added to, but nothing else. The SnW runs no matter what, dirty, clean, ammo of all types, etc, etc. but some dont like the external extractors.

My personal experience with Para was not good. My friend has a double stack Para and the thing is a total jam o matic. Thats an n =1 observation, so take it for what it's worth and the single stacks are probably much better.

Cant really put my finger on it, but there is something about the fit and finish/feel of Para's and Kimber's I just don't like, and I can't even tell you exactly why, but I am sure you know what I mean.

I will say, you see a lot of SnWs at IDPA in the CDP devision and very few Paras (in my experience)/ Why, I don't know and it may have no bearing on the gun(s) per se, but it's something I have noticed.

 

[P-14]

The only real problem I had with jamming and the P14 was when I had Greg Derr put a new slide on it with the night sights to be IDPA legal. It took 200 rounds through the gun to break the new slide in. No problems since with proper cleaning and lube (2K rounds later). The gun shoots fast and accurately. It's the owner that sometimes aims poorly! I'd buy another one in a heartbeat.

 

[M1911]

I've had many FTF on my P14, usually near the end of the magazine. Yes, I've replace mag springs, recoil springs, followers, used quality factory ammo. After a few thousand rounds through the gun, the hammer started following the slide down, so I had to have the hammer, sear, and disconnector replaced. In addition, the slide stop is peening the slide stop opening on the slide.

Eventually I'll have my P14 rebuilt. All I'll keep are the magazines and frame. Everything else from PO is junk, IMNSHO.

 

[Rockrivr1]

I use a plain jane S&W 1911 during USPSA practices that my club holds on Wednesday nights. (Haven't been to an "official" event yet. Maybe one of these days) It's been rock solid for me with several thousand rounds down the pipe. It's much more accurate then I am. The only issues I've had were due to reloads and my inexperience in making them.

I've only shot a para a few times and they seem fine, but I wouldn't trade my S&W for one.

 

[Gammon]

I've had many FTF on my P14, usually near the end of the magazine. Yes, I've replace mag springs, recoil springs, followers, used quality factory ammo. After a few thousand rounds through the gun, the hammer started following the slide down, so I had to have the hammer, sear, and disconnector replaced. In addition, the slide stop is peening the slide stop opening on the slide.

Eventually I'll have my P14 rebuilt. All I'll keep are the magazines and frame. Everything else from PO is junk, IMNSHO.

My experience was that the frame, slide and barrel were quality parts; I replaced everything else, except the grips.

 

[zerodown]

Hey Guys,

Went to the shop today and decided that S&W is the way I'm going to go. It feels much better in my hand than the Para's for some reason. I'm looking at 108284 which is the standard 5" 1911 in stainless with ambi safety and adjustable rear sight or the SW1911PD Tactical Rail Series which is a little lighter because of the Scandium Alloy Frame. Both are the same price. Which would you guys recommend? Can I go wrong either way?

 

[M1911]

Hey Guys,

Went to the shop today and decided that S&W is the way I'm going to go. It feels much better in my hand than the Para's for some reason. I'm looking at 108284 which is the standard 5" 1911 in stainless with ambi safety and adjustable rear sight or the SW1911PD Tactical Rail Series which is a little lighter because of the Scandium Alloy Frame. Both are the same price. Which would you guys recommend? Can I go wrong either way?

For IDPA, the lightweight frame will hurt, not help. A lighter gun recoils more and has more muzzle rise.

No need for an ambi safety in IDPA. Some folks don't like ambi safeties for carry because they make the gun a bit wider and there is a chance of the ambi safety getting turned off. I've got 1911s with ambi safeties and 1911s without. I don't have a strong feeling either way, but probably lean towards a single side safety.

Of the two guns you mentioned, I'd take the stainless with ambi safety and adjustable rear sight over the scandium frame.

 

[Lugnut]

For IDPA, the lightweight frame will hurt, not help. A lighter gun recoils more and has more muzzle rise.

No need for an ambi safety in IDPA. Some folks don't like ambi safeties for carry because they make the gun a bit wider and there is a chance of the ambi safety getting turned off. I've got 1911s with ambi safeties and 1911s without. I don't have a strong feeling either way, but probably lean towards a single side safety.

Of the two guns you mentioned, I'd take the stainless with ambi safety and adjustable rear sight over the scandium frame.

I would tend to agree. The extra weigh makes a huge difference for the better (unless carrying). The only possible drawback some have mentioned to me is a heavy gun can slow draw/transition time... but I think that is pure BS. The adjustable rear sight is a big plus IMO... for carrying it doesn't have rounded corners but it hasn't been an issue at all in IDPA.

I have the all steel full size (DK version) and am looking at adding another soon... this time maybe a PC gun. You will be pleased with the S&W.

EDIT: One more thing. You asked about holsters. I used Comp-Tac kydex for ALL my IDPA holsters... that includes the mag carriers. Their service and quality is 2nd to none IMO.

 

[Supermoto]

When you are first starting out, a heavier gun will help control recoil and help in tracking the front sight, as you progress a lighter gun will recoil faster and get back on target sooner, also it will help with transitions. It better to make up time on transition then splits,

I like ambi safeties when shooting weak hand. I find it easier to control the gun

 

[zerodown]

I'm actually a lefty and need the ambi safety to shoot strong hand. Wish they made a lefty version but what can you do... I'm going to pick up the full stainless this week so I can start practicing. thanks again for all the info.