Officials: There's no way to know how many stolen guns are on the streets

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http://www.sentinelandenterprise.com/local/ci_9225788

Officials: There's no way to know how many stolen guns are on the streets
By Damien Fisher
Sentinel & Enterprise
Article Launched:05/11/2008 12:15:36 PM EDT

FITCHBURG -- Countless guns are making their way through a black market and into the hands of people who cannot legally own firearms, according to Special Agent James McNally with the Boston office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

"There's no way of knowing how many guns are out there," McNally said.

There are nearly as many guns as people in the United States, McNally said, but there is no way of tracking where the guns go once they are manufactured, he said.

"There's something like 300 million guns in this country, and there is no way to register them," McNally said.

Andrew S. 20, of 83 Wallace Road, allegedly shot Gabriel Cintron, 18, through an open window on Normandy Road late in the night on April 25.

Jacob is barred from possessing a gun under Massachusetts law as a previously convicted felon. and his record includes 2005 convictions for assault and battery and assault and battery with a dangerous weapon.

It is still unclear where the rifle Jacob allegedly used came from, said Tim Connolly, spokesman for Worcester County District Attorney Joe Early Jr.

"At this point, that sort of information will come out as the case progresses through the courts," Connolly said.

Jacob is being held without bail on one count of murder.

McNally said every gun manufactured is a legal commodity until it gets into the hands of someone without the legal right to possess it.

"There's no such thing as an illegal gun, guns are legal, but there is illegal possession," McNally said.

Guns get into the black market in a number of ways, according to McNally.

"Those that have a criminal record aren't going to walk into a gun store," said Massachusetts State Police Major Frank Matthews.

Matthews work in the Division of Investigative Services. He said his troopers recover between one and two guns a week through investigations of assaults, robberies and drug dealing.

Fitchburg Police Sgt. Glenn Fossa said guns seized in Fitchburg typically come from drug raids.

"Drugs and guns are usually connected," Fossa said.

Fitchburg police arrested Keith Chartrand, 31, of 28 Cane St., on March 16 and charged him with stealing a rifle, a handgun and a shotgun from a Linda Street home, according to court documents.

Chartrand told police that Claude Canody Jr., 42, of 266 Florence Ave., Leominster, and a man later identified as Eufemio M. Gonzalez, 35, of 1295 Main St., helped him trade the handgun and the shotgun for cash and cocaine.

All men are awaiting trial on charges stemming from the incident. Fossa said Chartrand's case is one of the few recent incidents of gun theft in Fitchburg.

"We take it very seriously, and work hard to get these stolen guns back into control," Fossa said.

The city coordinates its effort with state and federal law enforcement agencies to track down firearms, Fossa said. Police know the dangers stolen guns represent.

"Illegally possessed guns are used far and away in more crimes than legally possessed guns," Fossa said.

Once a gun enters the black market, it can change hands several times and be used in multiple crimes before police catch up to it, Matthews said.

"We're coming up with two and three bodies on these guns," Matthews said.

Around 42 percent of all guns seized by police have been stolen from a home or car before making their way into the black market, Matthews said.

"That means we find that 58 percent are trafficked in from other states," Matthews said.

Guns come in to Massachusetts from traffickers in Southern states, or from drug deals in neighboring New England states, Matthews said.

"Crack for guns trades have become more prevalent in the past year," Matthews said.

Massachusetts criminals are going to Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont, where gun laws are relatively lax, and buying guns outside of guns stores with cash or drugs, Matthews said.

"It's as easy as jumping on the Peter Pan bus," Matthews said.

The push to get guns in neighboring states is, in part, the result of tougher enforcement of gun trafficking, Matthews said.

Guns coming into the Massachusetts black market used to originate in Southern states, Matthews said.

Young men involved in trafficking guns would go South and enroll in a college to obtain a student-identification card, Matthews said.

The traffickers would then use that student ID card at guns stores to buy weapons that will be re-sold on the street in Massachusetts, according to Matthews.

State police in Massachusetts started task forces to work with law enforcement agencies in states like Georgia and Alabama, where the guns were coming from.

The helped clamp down somewhat on the trafficking from those states, Matthews said.

"We're now working with our neighboring states, putting task forces together," Matthews said.

 

[Baystatesuks]

Uh oh, I can smell some more anti-gun bills in the works after the legislature reads this article. Of course, they could actually encourage enforcement of the ones they have and have harsher sentencing penalties for those breaking the law - but that is never the answer in this state. Instead, they just pass more laws they don't enforce and that the judges and/or prosecution don't pursue.

 

[MaverickNH]

Officials: There's no way to know how many stolen guns are on the streets

I wonder if there is a way to know how many criminals are on the streets? Sure, we know how many are sent to jail, how many are in jail, and how many are released from jail every year. But are there any statistics on how many unarrested, un-prosecuted and unjailed criminals are on the streets?

That's the figure that's missing.

 

[Mr Weebles]

Massachusetts criminals are going to Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont, where gun laws are relatively lax, and buying guns outside of guns stores with cash or drugs, Matthews said.

I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on this.

There's no way in hell some criminal is going to stand outside Riley's and offer to buy guns for crack or cash. They would be run out of there in a minute.

 

[depicts]

http://www.sentinelandenterprise.com/local/ci_9225788


McNally said every gun manufactured is a legal commodity until it gets into the hands of someone without the legal right to possess it.

"There's no such thing as an illegal gun, guns are legal, but there is illegal possession," McNally said.

"Illegally possessed guns are used far and away in more crimes than legally possessed guns," Fossa said.

WOW, it looks like some people in the right places actually GET IT!!! I think this is a pretty positive article all in all.

 

[Half Cocked]

I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on this.

There's no way in hell some criminal is going to stand outside Riley's and offer to buy guns for crack or cash. They would be run out of there in a minute.

I actually have had a case that involved just that. It does happen. I would not say it is rampant but it is happening. The suspect was indicted Federally and did 5 years. The gun store was in New Hampshire. I will not reveal the store as they did nothing wrong.

 

[pdm]

That just proves that we need to enforce existing laws. But the politicians can't take credit for that, so they keep passing more retarded laws.

 

[drgrant]

There's no way in hell some criminal is going to stand outside Riley's and offer to buy guns for crack or cash. They would be run out of there in a minute.

Well, it probably doesn't occur in precisely that manner. I doubt those who buy guns illegally just walk up to someone at a gun store and ask them to buy a gun on their behalf. They probably have other criminals they talk to who connects them with a retard with a clean record or false/stolen identity that doesn't care about violating federal gun laws. They probably say "go to XYZ gun shop at XYZ time and wait I'll come out with your "product"
and give it to you in the parking lot."

A large number of crime guns DO come from straws, unfortunately. Problem is it is impossible to stop straws without severely curtailing peoples' rights in the process. (And even then, you still won't catch em all.. )

Course, the usual deal here is the media and others will focus on the GUNS as the problem, and they ignore the fact that the perpetrators of these crimes are often multiple offenders or have been collared in the past for some
other violent crime. If these people were in jail instead of roaming around, you'd probably cut the violence rate by 50% or more.

-Mike

 

[Half Cocked]

Well, it probably doesn't occur in precisely that manner. I doubt those who buy guns illegally just walk up to someone at a gun store and ask them to buy a gun on their behalf. They probably have other criminals they talk to who connects them with a retard with a clean record or false/stolen identity that doesn't care about violating federal gun laws. They probably say "go to XYZ gun shop at XYZ time and wait I'll come out with your "product"
and give it to you in the parking lot."

A large number of crime guns DO come from straws, unfortunately. Problem is it is impossible to stop straws without severely curtailing peoples' rights in the process. (And even then, you still won't catch em all.. )

Course, the usual deal here is the media and others will focus on the GUNS as the problem, and they ignore the fact that the perpetrators of these crimes are often multiple offenders or have been collared in the past for some
other violent crime. If these people were in jail instead of roaming around, you'd probably cut the violence rate by 50% or more.

-Mike

Exactly correct, Mike!

 

[Gaffer]

The reason that we have so many guns on the street is that LE does not try to recover the stolen guns. My son had a home break-in and the stole a Anschutz Mod 54 Target rifle e/w a 20X 2' Unertl Target scope. The police traced it to Mass. and never tried to recover it. It really bothers me because those scopes are so hard to get these days and no one is making a replacement that is anywhere near as good. I even talked to the ATF and they were arrogant and rude about it. The perps were caught and jailed but the gun is gone.

If the police and LE did a better job they would recover more guns and get them off the street. Big government at work!

 

[depicts]

A retired policeman who is now a part time gun show dealer, and my sponsor in the Smith & Wesson collectors Association told me he was selling a gun at a show for $800. Someone came up to him and offered him $1600. My friend said, no, the guns is $800.

The buyer then said, if it doesn't have any paperwork, I'll give you $1600 for it. My pal told him to get lost and then called his Brothers at the police department who found the attempted buyer out in the parking lot trying to buy more guns.

It turned out he was someone who was trying to obtain guns for the IRA (Irish Republican Army) back in the day.

I can see someone standing outside a gun shop and approaching someone who just bought a gun and offering them big money for it. I'll bet that happens.

 

[vellnueve]

I thought the article was very well done and the LEOs interviewed for the most part understand the true nature of what is going on (illegal guns are the problem, not legal ones)

And Weebles, I don't think that's entirely what they meant. I think they mean that the crooks go up to the (obviously fewer) bad areas in NH and buy guns from like-minded crooks in exchange for drugs.

 

[Garys]

I actually have had a case that involved just that. It does happen. I would not say it is rampant but it is happening. The suspect was indicted Federally and did 5 years. The gun store was in New Hampshire. I will not reveal the store as they did nothing wrong.

But somebody did. Which isn't a effect of "lax gun laws" in New Hampshire or Maine. It would seem to be an effect of people willfully violating the existing laws that are intended to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

Gary

 

[Garys]

If the police and LE did a better job they would recover more guns and get them off the street. Big government at work!

This is like blaming the gun owners for having their gun stolen. It's the criminals fault, not the owner, not the police. Stolen goods of all sorts are almost impossible to recover, be it a car, a gun, or a large piece of construction equipment.

Criminals include the people who steal the property and everyone who touches it afterwards. If people weren't willing to buy stolen property, there would be no market for it.

Gary

 

[Half Cocked]

But somebody did. Which isn't a effect of "lax gun laws" in New Hampshire or Maine. It would seem to be an effect of people willfully violating the existing laws that are intended to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

Gary

Correct..it is not an indictment of any laws or lack thereof. It is an indictment of those who wish to break the law.

 

[Half Cocked]

This is like blaming the gun owners for having their gun stolen. It's the criminals fault, not the owner, not the police. Stolen goods of all sorts are almost impossible to recover, be it a car, a gun, or a large piece of construction equipment.

Criminals include the people who steal the property and everyone who touches it afterwards. If people weren't willing to buy stolen property, there would be no market for it.

Gary

Correct again....Gary you are on a roll!!

 

[BOBKATT]

The article had some good points but the whole thing about trying to get NH ME and VT to have stricter gun laws is B.S.. Just another example of the MA liberals blaming all their problems on someone else in an effort to skirt responsibility and blame. I hope NH tells MA to blow, I'd like to move up to NH one day and I sure as hell hope it stays free and doesn't go the way MA did.

 

[Half Cocked]

The article had some good points but the whole thing about trying to get NH ME and VT to have stricter gun laws is B.S..

Where did it say anything about thrying to get tougher gun laws in NH, Maine and VT?

Did I miss something?

 

[Garys]

Correct again....Gary you are on a roll!!

Thanks. It's what we, and everyone else, should be saying. Concentrate on the behavior, not inanimate objects.

During the 1992 election the motto of the Clinton campaign was "It's the economy stupid". That was a reminder to Clinton and his people that they had to hammer the economy to beat GHW Bush.

For us, the mantra has to be "It's the criminals, stupid". We need to stay on message.

Gary

 

[BOBKATT]

Where did it say anything about thrying to get tougher gun laws in NH, Maine and VT?

Did I miss something?

It wasn't directly stated. But it certainly is happening. I was reading an article that was published in a local Portland ME paper following meninos public criticism of the lax gun laws of our neighboring states about how MA officials are blaming ME for the amount of Criminals who own guns in MA. The writer of the article was suggesting that even though ME doesn't have the same problems, they should tighten up gun laws according to the Brady standards so that ME isn't the #1 contributing factor to the high rate of crime in Ma.

Menino and Deval and all the other antis have been attack NH and ME and VT for some time now, trying to tell them how to run their states. I just felt that this article was good propaganda for that cause suggesting the push for more gun control in the free states.
“Massachusetts criminals are going to Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont, where gun laws are relatively lax, and buying guns outside of guns stores with cash or drugs, Matthews said.

"It's as easy as jumping on the Peter Pan bus," Matthews said.””

 

[Half Cocked]

It wasn't directly stated. But it certainly is happening. I was reading an article that was published in a local Portland ME paper following meninos public criticism of the lax gun laws of our neighboring states about how MA officials are blaming ME for the amount of Criminals who own guns in MA. The writer of the article was suggesting that even though ME doesn't have the same problems, they should tighten up gun laws according to the Brady standards so that ME isn't the #1 contributing factor to the high rate of crime in Ma.

Menino and Deval and all the other antis have been attack NH and ME and VT for some time now, trying to tell them how to run their states. I just felt that this article was good propaganda for that cause suggesting the push for more gun control in the free states.
“Massachusetts criminals are going to Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont, where gun laws are relatively lax, and buying guns outside of guns stores with cash or drugs, Matthews said.

"It's as easy as jumping on the Peter Pan bus," Matthews said.””

I will not dispute the political climate of Mumbles Menino and other articles but I did not think that this was a bad article. It was telling it like it is. The use of the term "lax" tends to make people think that it is being used in a negative way.

 

[Meanie-14]

Maybe in comparison to a state where someone has to justify their "need" to purchase a firearm, the neighboring states are "relatively lax." But I think if anyone in Maine is selling a gun to someone who can't legally possess one, then there's probably some Maine (and/or federal) law being broken already.

"Young men involved in trafficking guns would go South and enroll in a college to obtain a student-identification card, Matthews said."
Maine is being forced to tighten up its procedures for issuing drivers' licenses, and rightfully so. Maybe student ID cards should be unacceptable for use in a NICS check or anything else except the school's own functions until the colleges require the same level of proof that states are now supposed to require.

But eff the "Brady standards," anyway.

 

[Half Cocked]

But eff the "Brady standards," anyway.

No room for argument there! Concise and to the point.

 

[packingungal]

The surprise is that they write this as though no one would ever guess that unregistered guns (they call them illegal) exist.

What they won't recognize is - the harder they push against this the more they will see it. The more they "see" it, the more of an issue it becomes (in their eyes). So they make more laws and push harder and harder, and they see more and more of the same thing. The more attention it is given, the bigger the issue it becomes....

 

[BOBKATT]

I will not dispute the political climate of Mumbles Menino and other articles but I did not think that this was a bad article. It was telling it like it is. The use of the term "lax" tends to make people think that it is being used in a negative way.

For what the article is worth it was a lot better than anything I've heard come out of the mouths of Deval, Menino, the Bradys, etc.. Don't get me wrong on that.

I just personally don't think the problem is guns. I think it's the criminals. Granted the subject matter article doesn't set out to address the issues of what causes crime and isn't intended to take sides on wether or not gun ownership leads to more crime.

I know he article isn't about this but I don't want known violent criminals to be able do obtain guns. I don't want those who obtain guns for illegal purposes such as drug dealing and robbery to be able to obtain guns. But more importantly I don't want those people who do that sort of stuff to be let back out in society on parole or after a slap on the wrist sentence, time and time again. And if thats the feel good "reform them" MA policy, then fine. So be it. But you'd better get real and let us Law obiders have a means of defending ourselves.

 

[vellnueve]

The surprise is that they write this as though no one would ever guess that unregistered guns (they call them illegal) exist.

Well, that's the thing, a lot of people don't realize that criminals don't shop at the gun stores like the rest of us. This article is meant for general dissemination, and the general public, especially in MA, knows a lot less about the issues involved than those here.

 

[sig shooter]

Every govenment that has banned peasants ownership of firearms to control them has pushed for this "registration" as a way to disarm us all and make us a slave to the government, it happend in nazi germany and it's happening right here right now.

gun control has nothing to do with controling crime it has to do with controling people!!!

 

[jcr]

The article steps on its own anti-gun hype.

his record includes 2005 convictions for assault and battery and assault and battery with a dangerous weapon.

A&B w/ deadly weapon and you're out in less than 3 years?

If this guy was still in jail last month, we wouldn't be discussing whether he was able to get a gun because of "lax laws."

 

[jcr]

go South and enroll in a college to obtain a student-identification card

This is just crazy talk.

For the price of a semester of college tuition, you can buy some seriously nice guns.

If all you want is a "gat" for the 'hood, paying tuition has to be the least efficient way.

 

[Meanie-14]

The article steps on its own anti-gun hype.

A&B w/ deadly weapon and you're out in less than 3 years?

If this guy was still in jail last month, we wouldn't be discussing whether he was able to get a gun because of "lax laws."

Well, there goes your chance to run for political office. You've got too much sense!

As the saying goes, "I'd rather go hunting with Dick Cheney than go for a ride with Ted Kennedy."