NRA Mid & Long Range F- Class shooting Karma

[bpm990d]

Does the 30" barrel really give more velocity? Or, especially for Palma, is it there primarily to extend the sight radius?

Good question. About 25 fps/ inch. It does not sound like a lot, but for the .308, 1000 yards is the point where most of the bullets tend to be transonic. Accuracy can suffer if you get below about 1.2 mach. Some bullets seem to do much better than others. The classic is the 168 Sierra out of an M-14. They shot like crap at 1000 yards for the most part because the bullet became dynamically unstable at they pass through the sound barrier.

B

This table is from the SAAMI Standards book

 

[Jose]

Does the 30" barrel really give more velocity? Or, especially for Palma, is it there primarily to extend the sight radius?

Both.

Try to get 3000 fps out of a 155 grain .308 bullet through a 22" barrel without excessive pressures.

 

[Jose]

Hey, while were doing gun pron, let me jump in

 

[bpm990d]

Ammunition Considerations

So we need to narrow our choices to what kind of ammunition we are going to shoot. I want to make sure that we have what we intend to shoot in NY, when we get together here in Maine. The ammunition needs to shoot small groups in your rifle for 17 shot strings. You get two sighting shots and 15 record shots with Mid-Range Prone and Palma matches.

First thing we are going to do is chronograph it at short range (50 yards) and make sure our sights are set up properly with enough adjustment. Once we get the velocity, we can figure out how high your trajectory needs to be at 50 yards to get you on target at 600 & 1000 yards. Depending on your ammo, it's going to be about 20.5" high at 50 yards. We are going to shoot on a plumed target like this, and measure up the precise amount you need to be and then make the sight corrections and shoot. If you do everything correctly, you will have a group centered on the plum line.

The reality is that is rarely the case. You are probably going to be off one side or the other. That is the error that you need to either correct by adjusting your mounts or take account of when you run your sights up to the 1000 yards zero. If it's bad enough, you can be totally off the target. I can't tell you the number of even experienced shooters that screw this up. Even at Camp Perry there are a bunch of people that have no clue and are off paper at 1000 yards with their new gun. But that is a story for another time. We don't want to screw this up. It's much more fun to drive 250 miles to a match and pay for a hotel and meals and actually hit your target.

Once we get that squared away we are going to test the rifle and ammunition for accuracy at 200 yards. It's not really accuracy we are looking for, the correct term is precision. We want to see small ten shot groups with no fliers. This is where we can work on our position and making sure everything is comfortable and solid. We can look at our bi-pod height, make sure we are properly aligned to the target and make sure our cheek pieces are properly adjusted.

Matt, I see that your rifle does not have a cheek piece that is adjustable. Think about what you could tape to the stock to bring your head up a little. We can get away with craining our neck a little for a few shots, but for long strings of shots that we do in F-Class you are going to be very happy you built up your cheek piece. Maybe a sponge and some duct tape would work. Just think about what you might want to do.

If you have not pulled a target, you will learn all about that and how to score each shot.

If you are shooting factory ammunition in .308, I would look at offerings with a 175gr + bullet weight that has true match grade bullets. I know Privi and some others have their offerings, but I don't think they are good enough for 1000 yard precision shooting. If it's loaded with Sierra, Hornady, Berger or Lapua match bullets, that should work. I know Federal, Black Hills, The Hunting Shack and Hornady all make ammo that would be appropriate. If you can get a couple of boxes locally and test it for groups first, that would be best. No sense investing is a bunch of ammo if the precision is mediocre out of your rifle.

Let me know what you are looking at for ammo and if you are going to be able to get enough. I'm looking at the middle of May for our range session.

B

 

[bpm990d]

Jose, time for some different rifle pics. That one on the bathtub is like Miss June that has been up on the calendar for ten months. Nice but it leaves me wanting.

How about a close up of the sleeve and sight mounts.

B

 

[bpm990d]

I wish I didn't just commit to a family function on the 11th.

Thanks for doing this, I would have loved to take you up on this.

Ed, if you want you don't have to go to the June 11th match in Scarborough. There are two 600 yard matches at Nashua on May 28th and June 5th. If you could make those and get a little experience shooting at mid-range you should be good to go for NY. I know GSmith from Nashua posts here and is a good guy and could probably find someone to help you out at the Nashua match.

Just a thought.

B

 

[ChevyGuy91]

Ed, if you want you don't have to go to the June 11th match in Scarborough. There are two 600 yard matches at Nashua on May 28th and June 5th. If you could make those and get a little experience shooting at mid-range you should be good to go for NY. I know GSmith from Nashua posts here and is a good guy and could probably find someone to help you out at the Nashua match.

Just a thought.

B

Hmm, let me look at my calender this afternoon, I will shoot you a PM a little bit later.

THANKS!

 

[G Smith]

Hmm, let me look at my calender this afternoon, I will shoot you a PM a little bit later.

THANKS!

Both of the matches Brian mentions @ NFGA are 3x600 any/any that are not NRA official / approved matches so unlimited coaching will be allowed.
I'm useless to help anyone with anything that doesn't use a sling and a post front sight but I'm sure we can find someone helpfull for you.

http://www.nfga.org/highpower/pdfs/nfga_2011_schedule.pdf

George

 

[bpm990d]

Scarborough Fish & Game 600 Yard Line

Just so everyone gets an idea of the ranges we are talking about. Here are two pictures of SFG. The first is the 600 yard line with targets without magnification. With the mark 1 eyeball it actually looks a lot bigger. The camera makes it look a little further away. The aiming black is 36"

B

 

[bpm990d]

Forbes R&P in NY

Here is a picture of the Forbes R&P club 1000 yard line. I have not been there in years but I remember it being a little crowded just like the picture. I'm not sure if they have fixed that by now. Nice range though and a lot closer than Quantico VA.

B

 

[Jose]

Jose, time for some different rifle pics. That one on the bathtub is like Miss June that has been up on the calendar for ten months. Nice but it leaves me wanting.

How about a close up of the sleeve and sight mounts.

B

 

[Mike S]

Hey, while were doing gun pron, let me jump in

Jose, was that before or after you gave it it's weekly bath?

That's a nice stick

 

[Mike S]

Ed, if you want you don't have to go to the June 11th match in Scarborough. There are two 600 yard matches at Nashua on May 28th and June 5th. If you could make those and get a little experience shooting at mid-range you should be good to go for NY. I know GSmith from Nashua posts here and is a good guy and could probably find someone to help you out at the Nashua match.

Just a thought.

B

Hi BPM, I'm planning on attending the any/any matches, can you tell me, what the acceptable equipment is for the "NRA 80 round" and "NRA Mid Range Prone" matches? Are those 600 yarders as well?

 

[bpm990d]

Those are two totally different NRA High Power disciplines.

The NRA 80 is an 80 shot Regional Match Course. It's referred to as across the course shooting:

20 + 2 sighters off-hand slow fire 200 yards

20 + 2 sighters sitting rapid fire (2 ten shot strings) 200 yards

20 + 2 sighters sitting rapid fire (2 ten shot strings) 300 yards

20 + 2 sighters sitting slow fire 600 yards​

You need a rifle that can hold at least 5 rounds and be reloaded rapidly. It's not F-class type shooting. You need a sling.

Mid-Range Prone:

15 + 2 sighters slow fire 300 yards

15 + 2 sighters slow fire 500 yards

15 + 2 sighters slow fire 600 yards​

This is the type of match that has F-class. Also a lot of sling shooters.

B

 

[rj4]

Nashua Fish & Game Association has 600 yard practice days for 5.00, dose any other range have these and how dose it work?
When do you want to get together and go over the guns and send a few to see how it gose? I going to pick up some 140 factory 6.5 and
Black Hills 308 to try. is there a difrence in Factory guns and non? if so were will I fall and am I better off in one or the other ?

 

[bpm990d]

Last time I went to Nashua for one of their practice shoots, it was a Thursday morning. Pay your money, they do the squadding and then you get a set amount of time. I think it was 45 minutes or an hour. One relay goes to the pits to pull, the other sets up at 600 to shoot. When time is up you switch. Shoot as much as you can fit into the time frame. It's all slow fire pull and mark.

I want to give everyone enough time to get their ammunition. It might be a little more challenging for those behind the Iron Curtain. I'm still waiting to get permission to use the club house and to run an event with guests but the HP chairman didn't have any problem with it. I'm thinking mid May.

All else being equal, a custom rifle is most likely going to shoot better than a factory gun. That being said, I have seen factory guns that shoot great. I'm not sure how competitive factory guns are though. The target is very demanding and the top dawgs all have custom, purpose built rifles. If they get a new barrel and it does not shoot the way they want, they take it off and get a new one. Barrels are consumable items.

I have a .308 M70 Varmint rifle that I bedded myself. I also have a M70 Palma rifle that has a Krieger barrel. I'm not sure which I'm going to shoot. I need to get a bipod for the Palma rifle though. Sinclair is all sold out of F-class bipods.

So far I have three people that have said they are interested. Another one is up in the air right now. I 'm going to give it a week and we can ask what weekend works for everyone.

B

 

[Mike S]

I went to NFG for a Thurday practice at the end of last season and LOVED it, can't wait to get out there soon.

 

[rj4]

Ok that makes sense. I may take a ride up to Nashua one thurday morning Ill let you know
Tell me when and were in Me

 

[Jose]

Those are two totally different NRA High Power disciplines.

The NRA 80 is an 80 shot Regional Match Course. It's referred to as across the course shooting:

20 + 2 sighters off-hand slow fire 200 yards

20 + 2 sighters sitting rapid fire (2 ten shot strings) 200 yards

20 + 2 sighters [STRIKE]sitting[/STRIKE] prone rapid fire (2 ten shot strings) 300 yards

20 + 2 sighters sitting slow fire 600 yards​

You need a rifle that can hold at least 5 rounds and be reloaded rapidly. It's not F-class type shooting. You need a sling.

Minor typo correction

 

[PatMcD]

Brian, are you going to Hampden this next sunday for the 3x600? I guess it's still a mud hole down in the pits so Dave said it's "weather permitting". I think I'm going to give my CG63 a try on one of the relays.

Have you got a rough idea of the come-up for the 6.5x55 from 200 to 600?

 

[JGG]

Have any of you experienced longrange shooters seen how the new 6.5 Creedmore round is performing ?

 

[VIzsladad]

Pat found this online for the round you mentioned. I hope it is of some use to you. See you on the line as soon as the doc lets me start doing things again

Dave S

This is a down range trajectory chart for the 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser cartridge with the scope mounted 1.5 inches above the bore center line plus if you were using this load, its effective hunting bullet energy range with well placed shots on,
Varmint / Predator size game, such as Bobcat, Cougar, Coyote.
Deer size game, such as Antelope, Blacktail, Hogs, Javelina, Mule, Whitetail.
Elk size game, such as Caribou, Black Bear, Sheep.
Moose size game, such as Brown Bear.
Bullet diameter .264"
Bullet weight 140 grains
Bullet ballistic coeffecient .441
Bullet velocity 2,600 feet per second
Range

100 yds. +2.4"

200 yds. zero

300 yds. -9.8"

400 yds. -28.1"

500 yds. -56.8

 

[PatMcD]

Have any of you experienced longrange shooters seen how the new 6.5 Creedmore round is performing ?

I haven't heard any first-hand reports, but with what I've seen on paper there's no reason to believe it's not an excellent round out to at least 600yds. That being said, I'm not sure what it offers over the more common 6.5-08 (.260 Rem).

 

[PatMcD]

Pat found this online for the round you mentioned. I hope it is of some use to you. See you on the line as soon as the doc lets me start doing things again

Dave S

This is a down range trajectory chart for the 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser cartridge with the scope mounted 1.5 inches above the bore center line plus if you were using this load, its effective hunting bullet energy range with well placed shots on,
Varmint / Predator size game, such as Bobcat, Cougar, Coyote.
Deer size game, such as Antelope, Blacktail, Hogs, Javelina, Mule, Whitetail.
Elk size game, such as Caribou, Black Bear, Sheep.
Moose size game, such as Brown Bear.
Bullet diameter .264"
Bullet weight 140 grains
Bullet ballistic coeffecient .441
Bullet velocity 2,600 feet per second
Range

100 yds. +2.4"

200 yds. zero

300 yds. -9.8"

400 yds. -28.1"

500 yds. -56.8

Thanks, Dave. Sounds like it's in the same ballpark as the .308 and .223. I think I'll be able to take a WAG on my clicks and get it on paper.

You mentioned a Doc; I hope it's nothing serious.

 

[VIzsladad]

Glad I could help, That's what this place is all about, Email sent in regards to doc comment. See you soon

Dave S

 

[Jose]

That being said, I'm not sure what it offers over the more common 6.5-08 (.260 Rem).

One important thing it offers is for-real match ammo that you can buy off the counter from Hornady.

Not a big deal for those of us who have reloading setups, but for someone starting from scratch across the course with a match rifle, that's a huge plus.

 

[bpm990d]

Brian, are you going to Hampden this next sunday for the 3x600? I guess it's still a mud hole down in the pits so Dave said it's "weather permitting". I think I'm going to give my CG63 a try on one of the relays.

Have you got a rough idea of the come-up for the 6.5x55 from 200 to 600?

Sorry, I'm doing stuff with the kids. Might get to do some testing at Cap. City on Monday.

Nice rifle. What weight bullet and how fast does it shoot them?

Rule of thumb is to come up three minutes for the 300 yard line and another 12 for the 600. Although it probably shoots them pretty slow.

B

 

[bpm990d]

Have any of you experienced longrange shooters seen how the new 6.5 Creedmore round is performing ?

With many things, you need to compare it to what it is shooting against. For NRA Long Range shooting, either out of the sling (traditional long range) or F-Class, it's not really a good choice. The reason isn't that it can't shoot nice groups at 1000 yards, it's because the velocity is just not there to give it the wind bucking ability that a 6.5/284 or a 300 Win.Mag. has. The most difficult thing we do in High Power is shooting perfect shots every time and attempting to judge the wind. Better ballistics make that easier.

That is not to say that someone couldn't use it to win a long range match. I've seen Palma rifles (.308) beat 300 mags because the shooter was a better wind doper and shooter.

B

 

[XTAV750]

Matt, I see that your rifle does not have a cheek piece that is adjustable. Think about what you could tape to the stock to bring your head up a little. We can get away with craining our neck a little for a few shots, but for long strings of shots that we do in F-Class you are going to be very happy you built up your cheek piece. Maybe a sponge and some duct tape would work. Just think about what you might want to do.

Thats not something I would have thought of. I was looking at this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0014VTREO/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&m=A3H4F531J87OQ6

It seems like a good solution, at least for now.. and maybe a bit better (or less ghetto?) than tape and a sponge... or am I wrong? I was looking at Karsten cheek rests, but im not sure how the whole thing works.

The only weekend I have off in may is the 7th and 8th, after that I'm screwed. But I'm pretty determined to make this thing, so let me know what weekend youre gonna do and I'll do some schedule modification.

 

[bpm990d]

May 7th & 8th won't work here because there is a Center Fire benchrest match both days. If May wont work for you, we can try and do it some other time. Give me a couple of days to try and nail this down a little better. Nothing says we can't do this more than once. Does April 30th or May 1 work? Also what about June 4th?

I have a B model Karsten that I have to install. You have to drill holes through the stock. Nice set up for fairly cheap money. The strap on cheek piece will work ok if it brings your face up high enough. The adjustable one will bring your face up high enough because it's adjustable. Here are the instructions for installing the Karsten. Ultimately I think you would be happier with the Karsten.

B

EDIT: Did you manage to get some ammo?