NRA Mid & Long Range F- Class shooting Karma

[bpm990d]

I'm going to do some F-class shooting this year and you are invited.

I've got several matches on the calendar this year. I have to work up some loads and chronograph them and make sure everything is ready for prime time. For the most part, Long Range shooting involves shooting the rifles right at the edge of the performance envelop so you need to make sure the technical aspects are good to go before you get on the line.

If you have a decent rifle and ammunition you can bring your gear and we can go to the range together and spend the better part of a day and and make sure everything is in the best possible order. We will use the chronograph to help us calculate our come ups and ensure that our bullets will be comfortably supersonic when they arrive at 1000 yards. We will also make sure that your sights are set up properly.

Probably a couple of hours of chit chat classroom type stuff and then a couple of hours shooting at short range (200 yards max). If you need help with your handloading we can do that as well. We will spend some time on wind estimation and correction. Range procedures and scoring so that you will feel comfortable at a rifle match.

The Warm Up

June 11th & 12th there is a NRA Mid-Range Prone match at Scarborough Fish and Game in Scarborough Maine. It involves shooting at 300, 500 & 600 yards. We will have two days of good shooting at one of the best ranges in New England. You will get familiar with how a match is run.​

Long Range

June 25th & 26th is a Long Range Palma Championship at Forbes Rifle & Pistol in Colonie NY. It involves shooting 800, 900 & 1000 yards. This is it, the real deal.​

You Must Have

An interest in NRA F-Class type shooting and a teachable attitude.

Rifle - Accurate bolt action .308 with a bipod of some sort unless you can convince me otherwise.

Scope - 10X will work, but it's a mistake for this type of shooting. 20X is better. It has to have enough elevation to get to 1000 yards.

Ammunition - Very high quality that will be accurate and supersonic at 1000 yards. I prefer you handload, but there might be some COTS ammo that might work. Each match is about a 100 rounds and the work up might be 75 or so.

Spotting scope or Binoculars - for scoring

Shooting mat - something comfortable.

Have your own transportation, entry fee and lodging for the two matches.

You must be Green! ​

Just to keep this manageable, I'm going to say no more than four people. It might be best to get a buddy to share the ride and hotel expense. Scarborough is not too bad from metro Boston if you leave real early in the morning. I'm in Augusta, so plan accordingly. I could possibly be convinced to do the initial stuff at your club as long as there is at least 100 yards and we get all the permissions.

B

 

[ChevyGuy91]

I wish I didn't just commit to a family function on the 11th.

Thanks for doing this, I would have loved to take you up on this.

 

[XTAV750]

Ok so here are my two questions. I'm picking up a rifle today that should be good for this kind of shooting. The first question I have is about the scope that comes with it. Its a Luepold MK II 3-9x40. I know I'm not going to be able to get to 1000 yds with that, but do you think it would be functional for mid range?

The other question I have is about ammunition. At the moment, I dont have the ability to hand load. I suspect that will change in the future, but for now the best I can do is factory ammo. Do you have any recommendations on what to use?

 

[Jose]

Ok so here are my two questions. I'm picking up a rifle today that should be good for this kind of shooting. The first question I have is about the scope that comes with it. Its a Luepold MK II 3-9x40. I know I'm not going to be able to get to 1000 yds with that, but do you think it would be functional for mid range?

Leupold does not catalog anything called a Mark II. They have Mark IVs in MR/T, LR/T, and ER/T versions. If you mean a standard hunting Leupold (Vari-X II or VX II) the answer would be maybe. You need between 16 and 18 minutes of elevation if you are shooting 168 grain .308 Win Federal Gold Medal Match assuming a 100 yard zero. You need to click your scope up from your 100 yard zero and verify that you have at least 64 clicks (assuming 1/4 MOA clicks) left before hitting the stops.

The other question I have is about ammunition. At the moment, I dont have the ability to hand load. I suspect that will change in the future, but for now the best I can do is factory ammo. Do you have any recommendations on what to use?

Assuming you are talking a .308 Winchester rifle, it is hard to go wrong with Federal Gold Medal 168 grain loads for work out to 600 yards.

 

[Jose]

To all those who want to learn to shoot at medium to long ranges, this is a golden opportunity.

If you are serious at all about this, put the excuses away and say "In".

 

[XTAV750]

Thanks Jose. It is .308 win. I'll pick up some of the Federal Gold Medal. As far as the scope, I was just going by whats in the ad. I'll find out exactly what it is when I pick it up. My guess is that this will just be a temporary scope until I can get some more funds together to get something more powerful.

I'm definitely in.

 

[bpm990d]

What Jose said is correct. The Federal ammunition is excellent in .308. The 168s are great for mid range shooting and they can do well at 800 & 900 but that is really pushing it. The problem is the Sierra 168 bullet is not a good long range bullet.

As it slows down at the longer ranges, it tends to become dynamically unstable and tumble. It's really only a function of the Sierra design for that particular bullet. I don't think their other .30 cal bullets suffer from that particular problem. The design was originally intended at a bullet for 300m ISU competition and does not transition through the sound barrier all that well. I would not shoot this ammo at 1000 yards unless I could verify that it was going to be supersonic. Unlikely unless the barrel is at least 30". Other brands of bullets that weigh 168 grains probably don't have that problem. Hornady or Berger would probably be fine.

A better bullet is the Sierra 175. This would probably be fine for shooting at 1000 yards. I'm not sure that Fed. is a requirement though. The Hunting Shack sells ammo loaded with Sierra 175s. Hornady also has some 178 gr. match ammo that might work but it all depends on if the ammo shoots accurately out of your particular rifle. The price seems pretty reasonable too at about a $1 a shot.

B

 

[Jose]

I only mention Federal because it's the one most likely to be found on store shelves. The others you mentioned are great too, and I've heard really good things about Hornady's new line of conventional (not plastic tipped) match bullets and their Superformance match ammo.

My two long range handloads (both 308 Win) are as follows

For my iron sighted Palma rifle (30" barrel): 44.8 grains of Alliant Reloder 15 in a Lapua case, Winchester WLR primer, and Lapua Scenar 155 grain bullet seated .010" off the lands. Muzzle velocity is 2990 fps avg, extreme spread is 24 fps and std deviation is 9 fps.

For my scoped target rifle (24" barrel) I tried to copy US M118LR as much as possible:
44.4 grains of Reloder 15 in a Winchester case, Winchester WLR primer, and a 175 grain Nosler Custom Competition bullet seated to magazine length (2.81" IIRC). Avg MV is 2660 fps, extreme spread 32 fps, and std deviation of 12 fps.

Both proven to be accurate and stable at 1000 yards.

 

[bpm990d]

The other way to go is with 155s but again that all depends on how fast they chronograph and if they shoot. You want accuracy first, then look to make sure that it's going fast enough.

I have two different .308 rifles, both Winchesters. One is factory and the other is custom with a Krieger. I have some 190 Sierras and 175 Bergers that I'm going to test.

B

 

[bpm990d]

I just recently picked up a Sightron SIII 8X32 scope for my rifle and got it mounted. Going from a VXIII 4.5-14 this new scope is a huge upgrade.

I also got a Karsten's cheek rest last year that I have to put on the rifle. Another must have for this type of shooting. Too many things to do and not enough time.

B

 

[XTAV750]

Here it is

New to me Savage Model 10. Luepold Mark 2 3-9x40 scope, upgraded kevlar stock and match trigger, Caldwell 6-9" bipod. I just need to add a sling, and I should be good to go. When I recover from this I'll look to upgrade the glass, but for now I think it'll work out.

 

[Jose]

Nice looking rig.

Can you take a close up of the turrets after removing the caps?

After you zero it at 100 (or 200, it doesn't matter), find out how much more elevation you have left before it runs out.

Does the scope base seem to be taller in the rear than in the front?

Run a sheet of paper tight against the bottom of the barrel as far back as you can to see if the barrel is floating all the way (or almost all the way) back to the action.

You might have a 1000 yd capable rifle if it will shoot the 175 gr Gold Medal load.

 

[XTAV750]

Does the scope base seem to be taller in the rear than in the front?

It does.

Run a sheet of paper tight against the bottom of the barrel as far back as you can to see if the barrel is floating all the way (or almost all the way) back to the action.

It does float all the way back to the action.

You might have a 1000 yd capable rifle if it will shoot the 175 gr Gold Medal load.

Thats good to hear. Is there any reason it couldnt shoot the 175?

In talking with the guy I bough it from yesterday, I can tell he put a lot of work and effort into not just setting it up, but doing it right.

 

[Jose]

Is there any reason it couldnt shoot the 175?

If the rifling is slower than 1 turn in 12 inches, it is too slow to stabilize a bullet as long as a 175 grain lead core/copper jacket bullet.

I seriously doubt yours is less than 1/12. Easiest way to find out is run five 175s through it at 100 yards. If they make round holes, GTG. If they make holes that look like the bullet on profile, not so much.

Again, I bet it will stabilize the 175s fine. Then try as many factory loads in that weight to find out which one it likes best.

 

[bpm990d]

I just looked at the Leupold website and that scope has 56 minutes of adjustment. 600 yards should be fine, but I'm not sure about 1000.

I just ran the numbers and a 175 Sierra at 2600 fps needs about 43 minutes to go from a 100 yard zero out to 1000 yards. You would need to zero at 100 yards at the bottom end of the adjustment just to make it out to 1000. Let me ask you, those bases look like two pieces. Do they have any angle in them? You can look at these NightForce two piece bases. Notice how the front base in noticeably shorter than the rear base. A 20 MOA base is going to be critically important with that scope.

It's not just the elevation that you need to look at. If you are at the very extremes of the adjustment, you actually lose windage. The range of adjustment is only at it's maximum when the reticle is centered in its range of adjustment.

Think of it as two circles inside each other. The outside circle is the scope tube and the inside circle is the reticle. Move the inner circle (the reticle) to the top of the outer circle. The closer it get to the other circle, the less room there is to move it left or right.

B

 

[rj4]

Hi,
Is that an open invite?
Im new to the Forum and would like to try F Class But never new were to start.
please let me Know

 

[bpm990d]

Hi, welcome to the forum rj4. It's open to anyone but you do have to send Derek $21 to become a Green member. Other than that it's open.

B

 

[rj4]

Ok were do I send the 21.00? Thanks

 

[XTAV750]

Thats great info Brian. I looked at the bases again this morning, and they look just like the nightforce 20 moa bases. So when you talk about running the numbers," what are you looking at?

If they make holes that look like the bullet on profile, not so much.

Is this because as the bullet decelerates it becomes less stable and tumbles? Or is it just a function of being unstable from the time its fired?

--

Welcome RJ4. Theres a lot of great info here and lots of benefits to being green.

 

[Jose]

when you talk about running the numbers," what are you looking at?

www.jbmballistics.com

Is this because as the bullet decelerates it becomes less stable and tumbles? Or is it just a function of being unstable from the time its fired?

Any keyholing at 100 - 200 yards is caused only by the rifling's inability to spin up the bullet fast enough for it to have sufficient stability.

At longer distances it could be either. I've seen 52 grain bullets keyhole at 600 yards simply because they shed too much velocity (linear and rotational) and started tumbling before hitting the target. Same loads were perfectly fine at 300 yards.

Seriously with what you have told us about the rifle, I doubt you will have a problem at 600 to 800 yards. 1000 may be too much for your scope, but again only you can tell if that's the case or not.

In any event, 1000 yds is a LONG freaking ways down. Spend a season shooting 500 - 600 yd matches. They will be challenging enough.

 

[XTAV750]

Thanks for all the great info guys. I really appreciate it. Now I just need to get hooked up with a new range to start figuring it out.

 

[rj4]

XTAV750 and bpm990d Thank you for the welcome.
I have payed and now Im Green. Im looking forward to this.
I must work up a load, Im thinking a .308 with 168 Berger VLD. I have 2 308's and an odd ball 6.5 Creedmor not sure witch to use.
You might find one of the 308's a little odd, it's a Rem 700 action, blueprented and squaired with a 1/10 18inch Shilen barrel, she shoots good at 300. but funny looking.
I shall read more of the posts here and other places and see what I can find. when do you want to get together and were?
Thank You
RJ

 

[Jose]

If I were you I would go with the 6.5 Creedmoor and a premium .264" 140 grain bullet. IMO, the 139 grain Lapua Scenar cannot be beaten and was my bullet of choice for mid to long range shooting when I had a rifle in .260 Remington. It is also heavily popular among those who shoot 6.5-284s.

 

[rj4]

I think you are right, but I havent had time to set up to reload that so I have to stick to factory ammo. I need
to shoot some nore with it to see whats up. I have just gotten it broke in. kinda lost my place to shoot so I must drop back and punt. LOL
I really want a 6.5-284 but that will be a few...
What do you think of the 140 Gr. Hornady Factory loads?

 

[Jose]

Hard to say because I can't remember the last time I shot factory ammo through my now gone .260 Model 70.

However, it if is Hornady Match ammo, chances are it will shoot better than good. After all, they did all the technical work to develop the cartridge, with Dennis DeMille on board doing the shooting part.

 

[bpm990d]

Tell us about your other sticks. The 18" one sounds like it might be better suited for closer range shooting. That is not to say that you can't shoot 1000 yards with it, but I'm guessing that you will be subsonic and the accuracy might suffer.

In F-Class we are shooting a 1/2 moa X ring at 1000 yards that's 5 inches. Even if it's accurate at that distance, you are going to suffer on the wind drift. There is a reason that purpose built F-TR and Palma rifles typically have at least 30" barrels. All else being equal, greater velocity = less wind drift.

I'd like to hear about the 6.5 Creedmoor.

Welcome to Green

B

 

[M1911]

Does the 30" barrel really give more velocity? Or, especially for Palma, is it there primarily to extend the sight radius?

 

[rj4]

The 6.5 is a Badger action in a AI stock I had GA Precision put together for me with a 26 1 in 8 Bartlein barrel. It shoots ok, I have not spent much time messing with it.
Night Force 5.5-22x56 scope on a Badger 20 MOA bace so it should be ok at 1000
Ill try to put up a pic
A stock Rem 700 pss in 308 with a 1 in 12, 20 MOA bace I have a Night Force scope for it just dont have it on it yet. It loves Black Hills 168 Gr it shoots real good for stock



Hope this worked

 

[bpm990d]

Thats great info Brian. I looked at the bases again this morning, and they look just like the nightforce 20 moa bases. So when you talk about running the numbers," what are you looking at?

I was trying to figure if your scope and mounts would have enough elevation to work at 1000 yards.

I needed to know:

1. Adjustment range of the scope (56 minutes total range)

2. Projectile and BC that you would be shooting (I used a Sierra 175)

3. Estimated velocity (2600 fps)​

From that information, I can come up with a drop table. I used Point Mass Ballistic Solver that came with Bryan Litz's book. It's just like the free on at Berger Bullets.

I set the zero range at 100 yards and selected 1000 yards maximum range and ran the simulation.

if you start with a 100 yard zero, it will tell you how much drop the bullet has at 1000 yards. -432 inches from the target center. I take that number and divide what 1 moa adjustment is at that range. The rule of thumb is 1 inch/ 100 yards. It's actually a little more but for a rough estimate that works.

So 1 moa of adjustment at 1000 yards = ~ 10 inches.

432 inches of drop at 1000 yards / 10 inches of adjustment for each MOA = 43 minutes up

The 20 moa sight bases add a lot of adjustment to the sights given the fact you only have 56 minutes of total adjustment.

B

 

[bpm990d]

Nice stick. Either one of those guns should be fine. I'd choose the 6.5 and make sure that the scope that has the most magnification is on it. The very competitive guys tend to like th 42X NightForce scopes cranked all the way up.

I leave it up to you. You can shoot both if you want.

B