Night Vision for dummies

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hminsky

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I'd like to learn what the best option is for a night vision system for home defense. The scenario I'm thinking of is if power is out for a while (no street lighting), being able to see what is going on around the yard or street.

What is a rugged reasonably high quality solution that is easy to grab and go, can be used to look around and also could be used to actually aim a rifle if needed? Is it better to get some sort of monocular and a red dot sight that can be set to night vision mode, or a night vision scope that has a reticle? Or some other combination of optics?

I'm not interested in spending $5k, but maybe up to $1.5K for a good solution? Surely prices have come down to something reasonable for good quality equipment that can do this by now?
 
hminsky said:
I'd like to learn what the best option is for a night vision system for home defense. The scenario I'm thinking of is if power is out for a while (no street lighting), being able to see what is going on around the yard or street.

What is a rugged reasonably high quality solution that is easy to grab and go, can be used to look around and also could be used to actually aim a rifle if needed? Is it better to get some sort of monocular and a red dot sight that can be set to night vision mode, or a night vision scope that has a reticle? Or some other combination of optics?

I'm not interested in spending $5k, but maybe up to $1.5K for a good solution? Surely prices have come down to something reasonable for good quality equipment that can do this by now?
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I have PVS-14 with Dbal invisible laser mounted on my AR.

I am interested in FLIR as well. Check out this video.

 
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hminsky said:
That is cheap and reliable, I agree. Only drawback is that it draws a lot of attention to you when you turn it on.
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For $1,500 you can buy one hell of an emergency lighting system. If you are trying to defend a point, probably worth it.

The advantage of IR is portability and stealth. There are a bunch of Russian Milsurp units at low prices. The only ones I know who use them, ironically, are cruising sailors.

http://www.kremlinoptics.com/
 
Thermal. Skip the NV if you're shelling out cash and can only afford one or the other.

You can get small thermal cameras for your smartphone, or high end ones for weapon mount. Face it, your concern is people. So you want to know if BGs are roaming around.

If you can't afford thermal or NV, I assume you wouldn't have posted this thread. So, I'm guessing if the OP wanted a flashlight, he would have posted a flashlight thread. Good luck scanning the area surround your house with a flashlight and seeing bad guys unless you live on a treeless sod farm.
 
I work with this stuff everyday for my day job. PVS-14s are nice. What's coming down the pipe is even nicer.

Thermal is great. The add-on for phones (FLIR Lepton) is too low resolution to recognize people. I wouldn't use less than 320x240 resolution---you need to identify your target and not just heat blobs. Know your target--gun safety rule #3.

A Gen 1 NVG will work fine as long as you have a bright enough light source. Get a near-infrared LED flashlight (not visible) to use with a Gen 1 to save yourself three grand over the cost of a PVS-14.

Keep in mind that all these devices have displays that will light up your face real nice at night unless you have a light-tight eyecup to mash against your face. Even then, they will ruin your night vision in that eye.

All of them will give you tunnel vision too, btw.
 
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I would argue, that identifying your target, in a situation at night dealing specifically with the security of your home is not a critical function, ever. A non-threat approaching your house will do so along the normal driveway/path. We're talking about seeing people hiding places.

To do that, thermal is light years more effective than NV. You have to locate a target, before you can identify it. If you want to identify a target at night the only way to do that at more than 50yds is to use an actual light.

I have an Orion low end scope with an IR light for night hunting. Its use is very limited and certainly nothing close to a PVS14, which I've used.
 
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Edit. So he talks about outside work. Ok fine. You still need to identify your targets---good or bad. A low-res thermal imager like a 80x80 FLIR lepton won't let you do that. It won't discern a person blob from a deer blob, let alone a bad guy from a good guy.
 
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noddaduma said:
Why argue? You don't want to shoot your wife if you're clearing your home because you're using such low resolution that all you see are thermal blobs. Even if you're changing the discussion to just people hiding rather than home defense.
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Um, the OP is specifically asking about outside the house. And if you're pulling yard security I'm pretty ****ing sure your wife is not roaming around aimlessly in the woods. Otherwise you'd probably be out looking for her. In which case a thermal is still the best option.

I'd like to learn what the best option is for a night vision system for home defense. The scenario I'm thinking of is if power is out for a while (no street lighting), being able to see what is going on around the yard or street.
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Had he asked "what's the best option for clearing my house?" I would have said a TLR-1.
 
Ok so we're talking about outdoors. That's great. See my edited post. You still need to know your target. Even if you have to know it in a split second. If you are clairvoyant enough to discern a good thermal blob from a bad thermal blob from a deer thermal blob, then get the 80x80 resolution smart phone add-on.

You realize you sound like you're saying that when the power goes out, you can just assume that random thermal blobs that you see in your display are bad guys...unless they're on your driveway? I'm sure that's not the point you're making, but that's what it comes across as.
 
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That's true, but it does give you intel to formulate a plan with. When it comes down to it, nothing beats using a weapon mount light like a TLR1 or WMLx to flood a known target and identify it. But you don't want to use those as a primary and give others intel on the fact that you're out walking security.

I get the small screen isn't ideal, but having a Torrey or a Seek is better than having nothing because you couldn't afford a $3-5k PVS14 helmet/weapon setup or a $3-4k thermal scope. You gotta work with what people can afford.
 
I agree with you the light is the best option if you have to go cheap. Alternatively a Gen 1 with near-infrared LED flashlight. Another idea is night security cameras on a generator-powered circuit.

If you can afford the high-tech toys, don't skimp on resolution (for thermal) or sensitivity (NVG's).

Just be aware that you'll light your own face up unless the eyecup can be mashed against your face..and they'll give you tunnel vision so get used to that before power's out.
 
I can't help but think about this scene from Patriot Games.



I mean what sort of situation are we talking about here if not something like this? Seriously though. What situation are you in out patrolling your house with no power or lights from people trying to attack it where the use of NV/IR is practical? I suppose if you are some sort of important person or someone with active threats against you, sure. But regular home owner Joe? I'm struggling to think of one where NVG's would be more practical and useful then a flashlight/weapon-mounted-light.

NVG's tend to be heavy, uncomfortable, give you terrible depth perception, are terrible with not enough light or too much light, and have focusing issues (though if you are just using it to scan your yard, should be okay). It's almost a novelty that quickly wears off that tends to be only useful in specific circumstances.
 
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I'm mostly interested in seeing what is going on outside. Using the imager as a rifle scope is not the primary use case.
The main goal is keeping an eye on if there are people moving around.
 
hminsky said:
I'm mostly interested in seeing what is going on outside. Using the imager as a rifle scope is not the primary use case.
The main goal is keeping an eye on if there are people moving around.
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From what I understand, you're not going to get any functionality via thermal imaging device, if you're observing through glass?
 
pupchow said:
From what I understand, you're not going to get any functionality via thermal imaging device, if you're observing through glass?
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That is true, thermal devices cannot see thru glass. Though I'm confused why if you wanted to run security, you'd be doing so standing at windows in your house.
 
A deer or bear comes running at me during a 'grid down' outage, he gets shot.

hminsky said:
I'm mostly interested in seeing what is going on outside. Using the imager as a rifle scope is not the primary use case. The main goal is keeping an eye on if there are people moving around.
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I would go with IR cameras and associated IR illuminators, with image-based automated motion detection and alerting, plus some sort of backup motion/vehicle sensors. You can run all the camera equipment off a bank of 12V car batteries if need be.

Basically, let the cameras watch your perimeter with non-human-visible IR lighting, so you're not lighting up the whole neighborhood and painting yourself with a huge "good stuff here" sign. Anybody coming in with night vision of their own will of course see your active IR illuminators, but that just tells them they have lost the element of surprise...


noddaduma said:
I agree with you the light is the best option if you have to go cheap. Alternatively a Gen 1 with near-infrared LED flashlight. Another idea is night security cameras on a generator-powered circuit. If you can afford the high-tech toys, don't skimp on resolution (for thermal) or sensitivity (NVG's). Just be aware that you'll light your own face up unless the eyecup can be mashed against your face..and they'll give you tunnel vision so get used to that before power's out.
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FLIR does IR, but is best known for their handheld thermal imagers, and also have a lot of interesting surveillance products in their thermal line, from a low-resolution $600 IP camera that will just show you a warm blob coming up your driveway, to their latest "FC-Series ID" product with on-camera analytics to distinguish animal from human from automobile (Price: $DontAsk).

The downside of higher-resolution thermal is the huge jump in price, as in, add a zero to the price tag.
 
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I bought some solar powered motion lights off amazon a couple years ago. They were like $20 each and reasonably bright.

You could buy a few of these and just stash them in the basement. If the SHTF, just go out and mount them around the house and yard.
 
Kevin_NH;4806358r said:
Anybody coming in with night vision of their own will of course see your active IR illuminators, but that just tells them they have lost the element of surprise.
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This is completely false. You're house is going to look like a prison with spotlights on to anyone approaching with NV. As in practically visible at any distance that line of sight allows. This doesn't remove the element of surprise. It just tells them where to shoot first to knock out your surveillance if they want to attack you.

If you're being stalked/cased by a group with NV you're pretty much screwed.
 
xtry51 said:
This is completely false. You're house is going to look like a prison with spotlights on to anyone approaching with NV. As in practically visible at any distance that line of sight allows. This doesn't remove the element of surprise. It just tells them where to shoot first to knock out your surveillance if they want to attack you. If you're being stalked/cased by a group with NV you're pretty much screwed.
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What "group"?

If you want to start yet another thread about post-TEOTWAWKI, then "being stalked/cased by a group with NV" would be a consideration, and in that end times situation, you wouldn't be wasting the power to run IR spotlights, natch.

OP posted "The scenario I'm thinking of is if power is out for a while (no street lighting), being able to see what is going on around the yard or street.", where the most realistic concern is not not Mad-max style organized gangs of murderous raiders., but rather a couple of guys in a pickup truck going around stealing generators at 4AM.
 
I read something about hacking landscape floodlights by using a IR diodes in them. Seems like a cool way to light up the place inconspicuously, while not giving your location away with your own IR illuminator.
 
pupchow said:
I read something about hacking landscape floodlights by using a IR diodes in them. Seems like a cool way to light up the place inconspicuously, while not giving your location away with your own IR illuminator.
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Interesting idea. If you try this, avoid the cheap 940 nm IR leds (the kind used in remote controls), spend a bit extra for 890-940nm.

Another possibility would be to use regular halogen landscape lights, put a IR-pass filter behind the glass:
 
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