Newbies who question our gun rights dedication.

[Nickle]

guess you need to open your eyes a bit. let me clear it up a bit.

There are millions of gun owners right? now he said 99.9% of them dont cause crimes.... I find that not true because the rate he stated is too high.

Would you say 80,000 legal gun owners involved in criminal activity is too high a number or too low?

I say 80,000, because thqat is 1 tenth of 1 percent of the 80 million gun owners in the US.

And some of us think 80 million is a low estimate.

Just so you know, your post leads a normal person to think you're saying 80,000 is too low.

Somehow, I tend to believe you don't have a god-damned clue in reference to what you're talking about. I don't think you know the number of crimes committted by legal gun owners, nor do I believe you have a clue how many Americans own firearms.

 

[dwarven1]

From Ayn Rand:

"The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles."

In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit."

YES. Excellent. Precisely what I was trying to say.

Thanks!

 

[Coyote33]

Recently there has been some new members who question our dedication to gun rights.

So IMHO:

Guns rights are by far the greatest domestic issue we as FREE Americans must deal with. If our .gov does not trust us to own guns, if Obama or any politician does not trust us to own guns then what does that say about how they feel about us. How am I suppose to trust a political figure who does not trust me with a gun? Yeah I know "don't trust any politicians" but that is not the point. With 80 million gun owners in this country and 99.9% of us not causing crime why is it even an issue at all? It is a made up issue used by the left to get votes by playing to emotions, it is not about crime or saving the children and if you believe it is then you are a moron plan and simple.

Anyone who is willing to give up their gun rights should be prepared to give up every right they have. The restriction of gun rights is the first step in all socialist and totalitarian movements and once they take them good luck getting them back. This is not Europe, Australia, Russia this is the U.S., the only truly free country in the world. This country is unique in the fact that it is the first to truly be created, maintained and defended by free men. No other country can say that.

If gun rights are not so important then why would our founding fathers have singled them out and placed them in the constitution? If you are willing to give up your gun rights then so be it, I for one will have not part in it.

I woke up late today so maybe I am a little cranky...

Sounds a lot like: Why Did it Have to be ... Guns?

 

[Nickle]

Agreed.

McCain sucks like a shop vac with a new filter, but the alternative is even worse.

Damn, that sounds like something I would say.

+1

 

[theGringo]

YES. Excellent. Precisely what I was trying to say.

Thanks!

You're welcome!

 

[tele_mark]

I am not disagreeing with you but I am also not really sure you are following what I am saying or maybe I am not following you...



In a perfect world I would vote libertarian but this election I will vote "damage control". IMO McCain will not hurt gun rights if he is elected and if he does then he will most definitely be a one term president. I think he knows that. Plus we have to think about the Supreme Court.

Look at McCain's record. Not perfect but pretty damn good.

http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/john_mccain_gun_control.htm
http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm#Gun_Control

McCain has already "promised" that if elected, he will serve only one term, so I wouldn't look to that as a safety net.

 

[dwarven1]

McCain has already "promised" that if elected, he will serve only one term, so I wouldn't look to that as a safety net.

And you believe him? Anyone remember Marty Meehan?

 

[Ray-500]

McCain has already "promised" that if elected, he will serve only one term, so I wouldn't look to that as a safety net.

Grin, sure don't believe in the "safety net". I just do not trust McCain, and NO, I will not vote Obama (crush my fingers first). At this point in time, McCain will say anything to get elected and will tailor his speeches to the audience. I refuse to get wrapped up in the "lesser of two evils" scene. Traditionally, the Repubs. have been the flagship of conservatives. No longer...and not for some time. Today's Repubs. (not 100 %) are not much different than the Dems. Do they listen to the people who elected them? I think not. We are NOT a "democracy", but rather, a representative republic. Are you being represented? My vote this year will be for a write-in and I hope many other folks will do the same...to send a message that we are tired of the non-representation. That is the only way the message is going to get across. McCain is way to eager to "reach across the aisle" to "get along". What ever happened to the idea of working for the ideas and principles that you firmly believe in? Sticking up for them? Really, really working for them? Is that not what our elected representatives are supposed to do? IMHO only, this is the time to send a clear message that we are not happy with our elected govt. and just voting for a "party" is not going to do that. Grin, am sure there will be any number of folks who disagree, but that is my opinion.

 

[clinotus]

I dont understand why people are insisting on voting for the lesser of two evils.

Isnt that logic the vehicle that got these two clowns up there in the first place?

Its just feeding the snake thats already coiling around us year after year.

 

[Ray-500]

I dont understand why people are insisting on voting for the lesser of two evils.

Isnt that logic the vehicle that got these two clowns up there in the first place?

Its just feeding the snake thats already coiling around us year after year.

That's my point and that's why I will be doing a write-in this year.

 

[Mikey]

So your both voting for Obama then.

 

[Ray-500]

So your both voting for Obama then.

Absolutely !....but only in my worst nightmare.

 

[clinotus]

So your both voting for Obama then.

I am.

You've seen right through my guise.

 

[Nickle]

By proxy, the 2 of you actually ARE voting for Obama. Of course, considering that you live in MA and RI, any vote other than Obama is lost anyways, much like mine is.

Just take a trip to 1992, and see what happens when you "Protest Vote".

I Protest Voted that year, and look what we got stuck with for 8 years.

If any of you actually did any research on voting patterns and voter turnout, then you MIGHT change your tune some.

But, back on subject here.

 

[clinotus]

By proxy, the 2 of you actually ARE voting for Obama. Of course, considering that you live in MA and RI, any vote other than Obama is lost anyways, much like mine is.

Just take a trip to 1992, and see what happens when you "Protest Vote".

I Protest Voted that year, and look what we got stuck with for 8 years.

If any of you actually did any research on voting patterns and voter turnout, then you MIGHT change your tune some.

But, back on subject here.

To be fair, it’s not fair to attempt to corral or wrangle my statement into a full political declaration. I suppose though, that the preceding statement is rife for further delving…

So political associations aside, I can say that I think he and I are on the subject.

The ship is sinking and ½ the people are saying lets elect a new captain who is familiar with water buoyancy ratios, the other ½ are saying lets get a line master at the head to organize a bail out of the ship with these buckets.

No one is looking at the fact that the ship is cresting a waterfall.

 

[BOBKATT]

To be fair, it’s not fair to attempt to corral or wrangle my statement into a full political declaration. I suppose though, that the preceding statement is rife for further delving…

So political associations aside, I can say that I think he and I are on the subject.

The ship is sinking and ½ the people are saying lets elect a new captain who is familiar with water buoyancy ratios, the other ½ are saying lets get a line master at the head to organize a bail out of the ship with these buckets.

No one is looking at the fact that the ship is cresting a waterfall.

I can't say that I disagree with you, I can only say that I don't see a better idea. Meaning that I see what ever side keeps as many of their vote for lesser of two evil voters is going to win the election. More now than I have ever seen, and especially with both Barr and Nader in the mix and looking better than ever. And to me, it's such an important thing to not have obama as our president that there is no choice but to vote for McCain.

 

[Nickle]

I just don't find "cutting off my nose to spite my face" is the way to go.

Oh, and to answer your REAL question, I've just got to ask.

So, sitting there and doing NOTHING is better?

We ALL know the next POTUS is going to be either McCain or Obama, NOT a 3rd party candidate. Voting 3rd party is the same as not voting, and in New England, that's a vote for Obama, by default.

So, YEAH, my comment WAS fair. You just don't like hearing the truth from that angle.

Are both McCain and Obama garbage?

Yeah, I think so.

I also know that the next POTUS is going to make a couple of SCOTUS appointments. And, those appointments are for life. I'd rather have another Roberts than another Ginsburg.

As I mentioned, our particular votes are going to matter very little anyways. MA, RI and VT will certainly go to Obama.

Too damned many feel good moonbats that think they need to correct the wrongs their ancestors made. (Obama's strongest state, percentage wise, is one of the whitest states.)

That, and those that seek change.

Well, If Obama REALLY wanted CHANGE, he wouldn't have picked the consumate DC Insider (Biden) for a running mate, would he?

 

[Ray-500]

By proxy, the 2 of you actually ARE voting for Obama. Of course, considering that you live in MA and RI, any vote other than Obama is lost anyways, much like mine is.

Just take a trip to 1992, and see what happens when you "Protest Vote".

I Protest Voted that year, and look what we got stuck with for 8 years.

If any of you actually did any research on voting patterns and voter turnout, then you MIGHT change your tune some.

But, back on subject here.

I hear you Nickle, but, IMO, there is more at stake than the immediate.

If we continue to run scared and vote the "lesser of two evils", what will ever change? Why should the GOP pay attention when they can always count on the "scared vote"?

Think about it....as much as the media touts Bush's low rating, they ignore the fact that Congress's rating is at a historic low....about 9% I think. That's a lot of unhappy people with the actions of our Congress as a whole.

Think of the impact it would have if enough people did a write-in as opposed to either of the two (to me) unacceptable candidates.

If that should happen and there is still no impact, then we, as a country, are in a very deep world of hurt....and will not survive in our present form.

 

[dwarven1]

OK... so you guys are convinced that the system is broken, and you don't want to "buy into the system" by voting for the guy who is at least a tiny bit better.

SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO HELP FIX THE SITUATION OTHER THAN BITCH ON AN INTERNET FORUM???


Are you out stumping for a candidate? Are you waking up your sleeping neighbors to the danger? Are you doing ANYTHING?

I am... I'm teaching Americans to shoot, and I'm teaching them what happened 233 years ago when our forebears said "Enough!" I talk about history to the sleeping liberals I work with, I try and get the guys at the Lodge out to the range... IOW, I'm doing something other than waiting for "the system to break" and hope I survive picking up the pieces.

Now... tell me what YOU'RE going to do.

 

[reks]

Are both McCain and Obama garbage?

Yeah, I think so.

The worst form of entitlement in this country is that people feel they are entitled to the candidate that they would pick. The only candidate a man will agree with 100% is himself and even then an honest man might not want himself for president. I think the whole "all politicians are $!@#" and "I'll vote but I'll have to hold my nose" crowd really need to rethink their position.

The question should not be "is X or Y garbage?". It should be: "Of X or Y, who shares more of the values I hold dear and who will make the better president?"

The choice is pretty clear for me on both parts of that question. Not only do I share more values with McCain, but I think he will make a far better president. I don't agree with McCain on a lot of things, and I resent him for what I believe to be "foolish maverick behavior". But the perfect is the enemy of the good and he's the best choice I've got.

Nickle's 100% right. Not voting for McCain is the same as voting for Obama and vice versa.

 

[clinotus]

OK... so you guys are convinced that the system is broken, and you don't want to "buy into the system" by voting for the guy who is at least a tiny bit better.

SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO HELP FIX THE SITUATION OTHER THAN BITCH ON AN INTERNET FORUM???


Are you out stumping for a candidate? Are you waking up your sleeping neighbors to the danger? Are you doing ANYTHING?

I am... I'm teaching Americans to shoot, and I'm teaching them what happened 233 years ago when our forebears said "Enough!" I talk about history to the sleeping liberals I work with, I try and get the guys at the Lodge out to the range... IOW, I'm doing something other than waiting for "the system to break" and hope I survive picking up the pieces.

Now... tell me what YOU'RE going to do.

Well for one, I’m not going to abuse the color or font subsystem to make a point. How about you give us the answers to the questions you given to me instead? Politics and longevity aren’t holding hands in a pissing match. And if you must know I teach history on the topics when I can, just like each of us who are riflemen, or who understand the parchments of our history. Doing so doesn’t make me a saint, a prophet, nor keeper of the way. But we are holding the line.

So since we do the same thing here as far as keeping generations and those around us enlightened in the ways of the free man. How about those answers?

 

[Ray-500]

The worst form of entitlement in this country is that people feel they are entitled to the candidate that they would pick. The only candidate a man will agree with 100% is himself and even then an honest man might not want himself for president. I think the whole "all politicians are $!@#" and "I'll vote but I'll have to hold my nose" crowd really need to rethink their position. The question should not be "is X or Y garbage?". It should be: "Of X or Y, who shares more of the values I hold dear and who will make the better president?" The choice is pretty clear for me on both parts of that question. Not only do I share more values with McCain, but I think he will make a far better president. I don't agree with McCain on a lot of things, and I resent him for what I believe to be "foolish maverick behavior". But the perfect is the enemy of the good and he's the best choice I've got. Nickle's 100% right. Not voting for McCain is the same as voting for Obama and vice versa.

Again, have to politely, but absolutely, disagree. IMO, you are still saying the "lesser of two evils". Who is it that voted against drilling in ANWAR? Who wants to give amnesty to all the illegals and open our borders to virtually anyone...without thought to what is needed for skills? Who voted against tax cuts? Who voted to curtail freedom of speech by virtue of McCain/Feingold? Who is it that is so willing to be "accomodating" that "negotiation" means giving the other side exactly what they want? Who is it that totally buys into the global warming scam? Who is it that wants to close Gitmo down and thinks that sleep deprivation, use of lights and sound, and putting female clothing on a male is REAL torture? This from a guy who underwent years as a POW in a real prison camp...not the accomodating site that Gitmo is! Want some torture? Try having your head slowly cut off with a dull knife. It may take a few minutes....but hey....what the hell is a few minutes? Don't want to go on and on, but as stated, I do not trust McCain. He is changing his positions as needed to get elected. Better than Obama? You bet! Better for the actual future of our country? Don't think so. I really hate not having a viable choice. That's why I'm doing a write-in.

 

[BOBKATT]

The worst form of entitlement in this country is that people feel they are entitled to the candidate that they would pick. The only candidate a man will agree with 100% is himself and even then an honest man might not want himself for president.

Good point.

 

[Nickle]

If we continue to run scared and vote the "lesser of two evils", what will ever change? Why should the GOP pay attention when they can always count on the "scared vote"?

Think about it....as much as the media touts Bush's low rating, they ignore the fact that Congress's rating is at a historic low....about 9% I think. That's a lot of unhappy people with the actions of our Congress as a whole.

The time and place to fix it is in the Primaries. We get GOOD candidates on the ballot, then nominated, and there we go.

The media has been little more than shills for the Democrats, and they know it. So, they are reluctant to make a big deal of Congress's low ratings, though they have mentioned it.

And the GOP does pay attention, some of them. The problem is really the voters in the primaries. They vote for some pretty lame candidates.

Think of the impact it would have if enough people did a write-in as opposed to either of the two (to me) unacceptable candidates.

Same impact it had in 1992 and 1996 when Ross Perot ran as an Independent, and the SAME effect that it has had every time Ralph Nader has ran as an Independent.

NONE

Other than having the winner end up with LESS than 50% of the vote ('92 and '96), and sometimes causing a different outcome (NOT for the better, nor the outcome the 3rd party voters intended).

Had you been watching this for more than the past 8 years, you would know this already. And that's why some of us don't buy the write-in or protest vote. You already know someone politically active that agrees with me. His name is Ron Paul.

If that should happen and there is still no impact, then we, as a country, are in a very deep world of hurt....and will not survive in our present form.

First, you are oh so wrong on this one. We will survive. It has happened already, been that way for YEARS.

I will concede that we are in a world of hurt.

Now, I can tell you that I'm only slightly more polite than the Dwarven1, my esteemed colleague, is.

Well, that's going to end somewhat.

I hereby CHALLENGE each of you to do SOMETHING other than sit and bitch about it. (Yes, that includes you, Ray and Clinotious.)

Get out there and start waking people up.

Don't just throw money at the situation, either, because that isn't what is needed.

What is NEEDED is people to get out there and educate the sleeping masses.

An analogy I've heard compares the US to the Titanic.

We've hit an iceberg, so to say.

Well, we don't need Ice Berg watchers any more. We need people to get out of the deck chairs and start bailing.

I'm bailing, as is Ross and a few others on this forum.

Are you going to join us, or just sit there and pontificate on the matter of the ship sinking?

Want to know how to start bailing?

Ask us. We're organized and ready to go. We're already bailing like mad, with people joining us EVERY day. And we're even bailing on a NATIONAL level.

So, just exactly WHAT are YOU doing about the situation?

Tell me about it, I really want to hear WHAT you folks are doing about things.

Dwarven1, Martlet, Crak, Mr Twigg and myself are teaching people to shoot, and teaching them about their heritage, and getting them bailing. We don't make money doing it, either.

Some other folks, like Derek are helping support that. Still more are working towards joining us.

The rest of you?

 

[Coyote33]

The time and place to fix it is in the Primaries. We get GOOD candidates on the ballot, then nominated, and there we go.
...

And the GOP does pay attention, some of them. The problem is really the voters in the primaries. They vote for some pretty lame candidates.

...

Had you been watching this for more than the past 8 years, you would know this already. And that's why some of us don't buy the write-in or protest vote. You already know someone politically active that agrees with me. His name is Ron Paul.

...

I thought Ron Paul was all done. Did he come back in a different party or something? I really wanted to vote for him.

 

[BOBKATT]

+1 for you Nickle, that was a great post.

 

[Nickle]

I thought Ron Paul was all done. Did he come back in a different party or something? I really wanted to vote for him.

Ron Paul ran as a Republican. He lost the Primary process, refused to run as an Independent.

I'm not sure if he asked people to not write him in, but I can say for sure he refused to run as an Independent.

You had your shot to vote for him in the Primary. Next time around, maybe work harder to support him.

Now, I'm no die hard RP fan, but he seemed to me to best out there this time around. I disagree with him on many issues, but agree with him on some of my key issues, where the rest come up FLAT.

As has been said, there is NO ideal candidate.

 

[arlow]

Who are you suggesting? And why do you feel that they will do this?

Bob I was saying I prefer McCain over Obama.

Even though neither are who I would choose in a perfect world they are the choices we have now and Obama is way scarier then Mcain. Everyone complains about McCain working with both sides of the senate. In some situations this can be a positive thing. Everything does not need to be us vs them. That is half the problem these days IMHO. With the morons the Dems put in office it should be easier to entice them with sugar than to force hard headed elephants to do what they don't want to do.

Mikey, you say I have missed the point of this thread, but I disagree. It has evolved as all conversations do, into something more comprehensive than just the original subject.

I believe I have made several pertinant comments to the original subject before the thread took this tangent.

And finally anyone not voting or voting for neither Obama or McCain needs to rethink if they think their principle is worth the price of voting for Obama because that is effectively what they are doing by not voting for McCain in any fasion or form.

 

[Mikey]

I don't know arlow you sound like a closet liberal to me...

 

[WayneWong]

The rest of you?

I'd like to think of myself as bailing too. I'm just got NRA certified and have two committed students already. I have donated to the NRA, GOAL, and I sent another $10 to Carla Howell this morning. I'm on the roles of Pro-Gun NH and Grass Roots SC. I have sent letters and made calls to politicians (I can't call them representatives), and reporters.

And I will do this, here now. If anybody reading this is Green and knows someone who wants an LTC but is strapped for money - out of work, behind in mortgage, whatever, I will give up to 4 of them a Home Firearms Safety Class for FREE provided they join GOAL (at their expense) when they can afford it. I can schedule this for sometime in September on a weeknight, will be in the North Attleboro area.

I'm a new instructor, inexperienced, but I'll give it my all for them.

Please PM me.