-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
-
Be sure to enter the NES/MFS May Giveaway ***Canik METE SFX***
sorry, it was a little over the top. my apologies.
What!?!? He's polite in real life? That's a bit disappointing. I was hoping if I ever met him in real life he would be the same crazy guy as online. [sad2]
Welcome to the forum Emil. The short answer to your question is: about $20. If you PM me with your approximate location, I'll try to recommend a source.
Don't be too upset about some of the replies - just consider it a rite of passage. I got similar treatment when I first started. It helps if you maintain a thick skin and don't feel the need to reply to all perceived insults. Read more than you post, and before you know it, you'll fit right in.
This being a gun forum, we get our fair share of trolls and kids. Once it has been determined that you're "real", the insults will abate. However, you might want to keep a dictionary close by. It'll come in handy when you're trying to decide if Scrivener is insulting you or helping you.![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
The people here really do tend to be polite; which is good - because everybody has guns and we tend to get together from time to time.
Don't be too upset about some of the replies - just consider it a rite of passage. I got similar treatment when I first started. It helps if you maintain a thick skin and don't feel the need to reply to all perceived insults. Read more than you post, and before you know it, you'll fit right in.
This being a gun forum, we get our fair share of trolls and kids. Once it has been determined that you're "real", the insults will abate. However, you might want to keep a dictionary close by. It'll come in handy when you're trying to decide if Scrivener is insulting you or helping you.
The people here really do tend to be polite; which is good - because everybody has guns and we tend to get together from time to time.
Last edited:
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
![[laugh2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/014.gif "Laugh at above [laugh2]")
Another Newbie here.
Not to defend or to assist anyone.
The M16A1 has a one in 11 twist, has a round 5 position Front site post and the Windage is in One Minute increments. The Elevation can ONLY be adjusted on the Front Site Post. Has a Traingular Fore stock, 3/4 inch shorter Butt stock and has the ability for SAFE SINGLE AUTO.
Older AR-15 is the same except No AUTO. Parts are easily exchanged for the Upper. No Bayonet Lug. Lower has some Interchangeable parts.
M16A2 has a One in 7 twist. Round Forestock, Longer Butt stock, has a 4 position Square front site post, elevation and Windage can be adjusted at the Rear in 1/2 minute increments. Front site adjustment is 1.25 inches per 100 meters. Selection is SAFE SINGLE BURST (3 rd) shoots the NEW Green Tip Crap. More accurate for long range if you shoot the Old Ammo. Reason being is that the Teflon Core is NOT always Geometrically centered and with the 1 in 7 twist the Projectile will wobble off course by several feet over a 400 500 or 600 meter Range. The A2 has a modified Muzzle Brake verus the A1 with a Flash Suppressor. The Bolt Assist is different on the A2 versus the A1
I have an AR-15 with a M16A2 Upper, I chose to put the A1 rear Butt stock on, so I can get a better wrap in the Off Hand. I also have a HBar AR-15 Colt and it has NO Bayonet Lug, No Auto and shoots like a DREAM.
I could go on, but have run my mouth too long as it is. I am NOT a Gun Smith or an Armorer, just a SHOOTER.
Not to defend or to assist anyone.
The M16A1 has a one in 11 twist, has a round 5 position Front site post and the Windage is in One Minute increments. The Elevation can ONLY be adjusted on the Front Site Post. Has a Traingular Fore stock, 3/4 inch shorter Butt stock and has the ability for SAFE SINGLE AUTO.
Older AR-15 is the same except No AUTO. Parts are easily exchanged for the Upper. No Bayonet Lug. Lower has some Interchangeable parts.
M16A2 has a One in 7 twist. Round Forestock, Longer Butt stock, has a 4 position Square front site post, elevation and Windage can be adjusted at the Rear in 1/2 minute increments. Front site adjustment is 1.25 inches per 100 meters. Selection is SAFE SINGLE BURST (3 rd) shoots the NEW Green Tip Crap. More accurate for long range if you shoot the Old Ammo. Reason being is that the Teflon Core is NOT always Geometrically centered and with the 1 in 7 twist the Projectile will wobble off course by several feet over a 400 500 or 600 meter Range. The A2 has a modified Muzzle Brake verus the A1 with a Flash Suppressor. The Bolt Assist is different on the A2 versus the A1
I have an AR-15 with a M16A2 Upper, I chose to put the A1 rear Butt stock on, so I can get a better wrap in the Off Hand. I also have a HBar AR-15 Colt and it has NO Bayonet Lug, No Auto and shoots like a DREAM.
I could go on, but have run my mouth too long as it is. I am NOT a Gun Smith or an Armorer, just a SHOOTER.
Last edited:
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
Wingwiper, welcome to the forum. You gave a good camparison of the M16 vs Ar15. The A1 had 1:12 twist.
Emil, welcome also, and it would appear that most of us do know a little more than you at this point. No problem, ask and nearly everyone here will help. It really helps if you don't refer to AR15 type rifles as M16's - just for your own benefit.
I think several folks have already answered your question concerning 30 round magazines - both on price and legallity for you folks up there.
Regards.
Emil, welcome also, and it would appear that most of us do know a little more than you at this point. No problem, ask and nearly everyone here will help. It really helps if you don't refer to AR15 type rifles as M16's - just for your own benefit.
I think several folks have already answered your question concerning 30 round magazines - both on price and legallity for you folks up there.
Regards.
Tony
OK 1:12. Maybe it was 1:11.7 ...... J/K
The Mind is the First to go.
I would NEVER use a 30 rd mag, I prefer the Shorter 20 rd. Because the M-16 has a seperate UPPERr and seperate LOWER and the Sling Swivels are on the Barrel and the Butt, if you use a sling, you bend the barrel downward. I like to use a SKELETAL HOLD with NO SLING and in so doing, even the 20 rd will dig into my forearm. The 30 Rd is just plain in the WAY.
I got a PM from someone and I was trying to reply to it and I lost it, so forgive me for answering here.
The GREEN TIP 5.56mm has a Teflon Tip and that tip goes into the projectile. (I am not a Gunsmith or a reloader just a SHOOTER and I am repeating what Matt McCullaum from the Tenn M.T.U. told us) The Tip if NOT Geometrically perfectly centered will throw the Projectile off balance.
I was shooting a MAtch at 500 meters and I had a good shot. My coach had a scope over me and read the WASH and asked me for the last rd. I told him "maybe a 12 oclock V or 5, for I may have bit into the Black." He laughed and said he watched the Wash go between Target Frames (about 5 feet to the left of Center V). It wasn't until another shooter was firing and the same thing happen, did we realize it was the Ammo and not the Shooter. We inquired and Matt gave us the answer. Because at the time the A2 was NOT fully transition, we were able to choose in the Martches whether we wanted Green Tip or the Old. We stayed with the OLD and did very very well.
Now the Ammo is almost ALL Green Tip. Anyone who may do reloads may have more accurate explanation of what I am saying.
OK 1:12. Maybe it was 1:11.7 ...... J/K
The Mind is the First to go.
I would NEVER use a 30 rd mag, I prefer the Shorter 20 rd. Because the M-16 has a seperate UPPERr and seperate LOWER and the Sling Swivels are on the Barrel and the Butt, if you use a sling, you bend the barrel downward. I like to use a SKELETAL HOLD with NO SLING and in so doing, even the 20 rd will dig into my forearm. The 30 Rd is just plain in the WAY.
I got a PM from someone and I was trying to reply to it and I lost it, so forgive me for answering here.
The GREEN TIP 5.56mm has a Teflon Tip and that tip goes into the projectile. (I am not a Gunsmith or a reloader just a SHOOTER and I am repeating what Matt McCullaum from the Tenn M.T.U. told us) The Tip if NOT Geometrically perfectly centered will throw the Projectile off balance.
I was shooting a MAtch at 500 meters and I had a good shot. My coach had a scope over me and read the WASH and asked me for the last rd. I told him "maybe a 12 oclock V or 5, for I may have bit into the Black." He laughed and said he watched the Wash go between Target Frames (about 5 feet to the left of Center V). It wasn't until another shooter was firing and the same thing happen, did we realize it was the Ammo and not the Shooter. We inquired and Matt gave us the answer. Because at the time the A2 was NOT fully transition, we were able to choose in the Martches whether we wanted Green Tip or the Old. We stayed with the OLD and did very very well.
Now the Ammo is almost ALL Green Tip. Anyone who may do reloads may have more accurate explanation of what I am saying.
I have to really concentrate to even follow your words. ...
But my Bushmaster xm 15 has a 1:9 twist. I shoot Wolf and have a shiteload of reman LC FMJ w/ no color. both 55 grn I think.
WHat do you guys reccomend for the 1:9 carbines ?
But my Bushmaster xm 15 has a 1:9 twist. I shoot Wolf and have a shiteload of reman LC FMJ w/ no color. both 55 grn I think.
WHat do you guys reccomend for the 1:9 carbines ?
That depends whether you are Hunting or you are shooting for SCORE.
My Info is for SCORE shooters only.
NO GREEN TIPs
Lake City is good Ammo, I use LC MATCH. Stay with solid FMJ or BALL. No Hollow points, no tips etc. You will have much more STABLE flight to the target over Long Range. PMC and FEDERAL are also very consistant. I use American Military only.
My Info is for SCORE shooters only.
NO GREEN TIPs
Lake City is good Ammo, I use LC MATCH. Stay with solid FMJ or BALL. No Hollow points, no tips etc. You will have much more STABLE flight to the target over Long Range. PMC and FEDERAL are also very consistant. I use American Military only.
reinbeau
NES Member
To address the spelling issue (again), I recommend TinySpell, which is freeware (unless you pay the pittance for the paid-for version, has a few more bells and whistles, but the free one does everything most need). Or get the new Firefox 2.0 and it'll spellcheck for you.
E
emil02
thanx for the replies.
emil
Don't take it personal..
If I can be of help, I will gladly offer what I have learned and what I know. When I was shooting Professionally, we had a saying 'There are those who Have and there are those who WILL'
By the way reinbeau, shouldn't the USED in your quote be USE? J/W I also noticed that the FIRST post of yours within this Forum had some Spelling errors and some Grammar ones as well. May I suggest Firefox 2.0?
Don't take it personal..
If I can be of help, I will gladly offer what I have learned and what I know. When I was shooting Professionally, we had a saying 'There are those who Have and there are those who WILL'
By the way reinbeau, shouldn't the USED in your quote be USE? J/W I also noticed that the FIRST post of yours within this Forum had some Spelling errors and some Grammar ones as well. May I suggest Firefox 2.0?
reinbeau
NES Member
No, I wasn't speaking to you, at all. Up higher in the thread they were taking Emil to task for his spelling. As you told Emil, don't take things personally.
Spelling and punctuation defects aside, WHERE is there ANY "Teflon" in "Green Tip;" i.e., M 855/SS 109 ammunition? Do you perhaps mean "tungsten?" I believe the penetrator is steel, but it may be titanium or tungsten.
As the 62 grain penetrator ammo is the NATO standard and the later M-16s and new M-4s all have a 1:9 twist to accommodate that projectile, I would expect that ammo to be in common use.
Scrivener
It could very well be tungsten, we were told Teflon. I just researched here it is '62 grain projectile is constructed of a lead alloy core topped by a steel penetrator" LEAD CORE and Steel Penetrator are NOT always MARRIED/geometrically centered for balance.
Yes! they are in common use now, matter of fact, I don't think you can draw anything but Green Tip. Fact still remains exactly as I wrote, it is not always balanced (penetrator and core) in center and will wobble out of flight. I am speaking of 400 meters or greater, so if you are plinking, you will probably never even notice. I am referring to Precision Long Range Matches where score is very important and the Team can win at the end of the week with only a few points in Aggregate Seperation. Very simply the shorter twist whether it be 1:7 of the M16A2 Colt or the 1:9 Bushmaster M-4 will get the Projectile spinning many more RPS than with the LONGER Twist, 62 grains versus 55 grains isn't much difference in weight for stability and when the Penetrator is NOT centered into the Core it will be OFF balance and it will wobble, just like an UNBALANCED tire on your car. I would NEVER use Green Tip for any reason at 400 meters or greater. Green Tip is NOT recommended for M16A1s for shooting over 100 meters. Why? because the twist isn't great enough at 1:12 to stabilize it. The 1:7 twist of the M16A2 is good for stabilizing up to about 400 meters and then it is touch and go. been there, done that.
I have fired many hundreds of thousands of rounds through the M16A1 and the M16A2 and AR15 and I was in competition for over ten years.
As FAR as Capitals, I use them to ACCENT and sorry you feel it is rampant. Understand too, that BZ is for 36 inch Chest area. Battlesight Zero is to mainly get you ABOVE the belt and BELOW the chin of the enmy soldier. Most soldiers don't have a clue nor the time to adjust Dope on their rifles during a Firefight. BZ will keep their strikes within a Kill Zone. We are NOT talking Precision as in Competition, Killing and Precision Scoring is a wee bit different. In Combat if I aim for the chest and hit the Head, he is DEAD, in Competition if I aim for the V Ring and hit a High 3 That is two points and one less V. When I sight my rifle in I want DEAD CENTER Vs and not 3 o'clock Vs. When you get back to the 600 meter line those 3 oclock Vs become 3s and misses, those DEAD CENTER Vs become Vs and fives.
It could very well be tungsten, we were told Teflon. I just researched here it is '62 grain projectile is constructed of a lead alloy core topped by a steel penetrator" LEAD CORE and Steel Penetrator are NOT always MARRIED/geometrically centered for balance.
Yes! they are in common use now, matter of fact, I don't think you can draw anything but Green Tip. Fact still remains exactly as I wrote, it is not always balanced (penetrator and core) in center and will wobble out of flight. I am speaking of 400 meters or greater, so if you are plinking, you will probably never even notice. I am referring to Precision Long Range Matches where score is very important and the Team can win at the end of the week with only a few points in Aggregate Seperation. Very simply the shorter twist whether it be 1:7 of the M16A2 Colt or the 1:9 Bushmaster M-4 will get the Projectile spinning many more RPS than with the LONGER Twist, 62 grains versus 55 grains isn't much difference in weight for stability and when the Penetrator is NOT centered into the Core it will be OFF balance and it will wobble, just like an UNBALANCED tire on your car. I would NEVER use Green Tip for any reason at 400 meters or greater. Green Tip is NOT recommended for M16A1s for shooting over 100 meters. Why? because the twist isn't great enough at 1:12 to stabilize it. The 1:7 twist of the M16A2 is good for stabilizing up to about 400 meters and then it is touch and go. been there, done that.
I have fired many hundreds of thousands of rounds through the M16A1 and the M16A2 and AR15 and I was in competition for over ten years.
As FAR as Capitals, I use them to ACCENT and sorry you feel it is rampant. Understand too, that BZ is for 36 inch Chest area. Battlesight Zero is to mainly get you ABOVE the belt and BELOW the chin of the enmy soldier. Most soldiers don't have a clue nor the time to adjust Dope on their rifles during a Firefight. BZ will keep their strikes within a Kill Zone. We are NOT talking Precision as in Competition, Killing and Precision Scoring is a wee bit different. In Combat if I aim for the chest and hit the Head, he is DEAD, in Competition if I aim for the V Ring and hit a High 3 That is two points and one less V. When I sight my rifle in I want DEAD CENTER Vs and not 3 o'clock Vs. When you get back to the 600 meter line those 3 oclock Vs become 3s and misses, those DEAD CENTER Vs become Vs and fives.
Last edited:
Well, I did because I have quite a few of them. Speer used to make what its own reloading manual called a "duplicate" of the M 855 / SS 109 projectile and I ordered some to see if it was true. Back in '94, when I first ordered the Speer bullets, I was trying to figure out a way to determine if the penetrator was there without destroying the bullet.
The material on that ammo referred to a steel penetrator. The magnetic screwdrivers hanging from my reloading cabinet provided the obvious answer. Swiping them across the bullets made the tips, but NOT the bases move, proving that they had the steel penetrator. Barnaul bullets, which have no penetrator but a mild steel jacket under heavy copper plating, move wherever the magnet is placed.
As neither tungsten nor titanium is magnetic, it would appear that neither is what the penetrator is made of. It must be steel and cannot be Teflon. Indeed, you are the only person I've ever heard say Teflon was part of mil-spec rifle ammo.
NOTE: Speer subsequently stopped inserting the penetrator, thus changing the bullet length, but did not change the part number. I found this out when a later batch did not seat properly. Subsequent testing showed NO magnetism; this and the shorter OAL proved the absence of the penetrator. I started buying IMI bullets instead, as those are still correct.
I never said your use of them was "rampant." Further, ACCENT is fine; Random use for No discernible purpose is distracting.
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
Last edited:
Is this the beat on the newbie thread? Can we lock this one and just start over? Sheesh. ![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
Scrivener
I researched and found that what Matt had told us (Teflon) is actually a Lead ALLOY Core ( is Teflon a Lead alloy??? Tungsten is Carbon, correct??) and a STEEL Penetrator. The Peneatrator is what was off balance when it was Married to the Lead Core. Matt had told us Teflon and that was many years ago and I never researched until just now. I shoot I don't reload them.
I had a scope over a guy, myself and I watched the WASH go from center of target to between target frames and that is a distance of about 5 feet and we were at 400 meters. I got off the team in 95 and now work at the ranges. I still shoot but nowhere to the extent I use to. I miss the smell of gun powder.
I know you didn't say Rampant, fooped did, I was answering both of you... sorry
I researched and found that what Matt had told us (Teflon) is actually a Lead ALLOY Core ( is Teflon a Lead alloy??? Tungsten is Carbon, correct??) and a STEEL Penetrator. The Peneatrator is what was off balance when it was Married to the Lead Core. Matt had told us Teflon and that was many years ago and I never researched until just now. I shoot I don't reload them.
I had a scope over a guy, myself and I watched the WASH go from center of target to between target frames and that is a distance of about 5 feet and we were at 400 meters. I got off the team in 95 and now work at the ranges. I still shoot but nowhere to the extent I use to. I miss the smell of gun powder.
I know you didn't say Rampant, fooped did, I was answering both of you... sorry
Last edited:
Beat of the Newbie thread??
Scrivener just made me research and I found I had been in error for many years on the core material, I gain some knowledge here already, so Beat? Yeah I guess it is a Good Beat.
Scrivener just made me research and I found I had been in error for many years on the core material, I gain some knowledge here already, so Beat? Yeah I guess it is a Good Beat.
Type
Thanks for the info.
Net result of the findings
Green Tip Projectiles have Three Components
a. Copper jacket
b. Iron Alloy Core
c. Steel Penetrator
Regular or Older A1 55 gr Ammo has ONLY Two Components
A. Iron Alloy Core
B. Copper jacket
What Matt was probably explaining to us was simply that to get the THREE Components to act as ONE Balanced Projectile that would not wobble in flight was much more of a task than with the Standard Two Component Projectile.
What I witnessed with the Projectile missing the target frame by several feet, only happened a few times as I can remember. BUT...... We were shooting Precision Matches and even if the Projectile stayed on target and we AIMed at a Center V and got a 9 o'clock 4 instead, it cost the Team Points. The Standard constructed Projectile if we aimed at the Center V and missed, it was most likely the Shooter who screwed up and we could CORRECT that. We found using the 55 gr older Rounds in the NEW M16A2 UPPER created a super result. Remember, we were shooting Paper for scores and NOT enemy combantants.
In Combat? It would probably still wound or kill the enemy and that is still a HIT. Personally I am NOT an AR man, I prefer ONE SHOT, ONE KILL. Precision shooting requires less ammo to accomplish the same job and usually with Better results.
Carlos Hathcock was a PRECISION SHOOTER.
Thanks for the info.
Net result of the findings
Green Tip Projectiles have Three Components
a. Copper jacket
b. Iron Alloy Core
c. Steel Penetrator
Regular or Older A1 55 gr Ammo has ONLY Two Components
A. Iron Alloy Core
B. Copper jacket
What Matt was probably explaining to us was simply that to get the THREE Components to act as ONE Balanced Projectile that would not wobble in flight was much more of a task than with the Standard Two Component Projectile.
What I witnessed with the Projectile missing the target frame by several feet, only happened a few times as I can remember. BUT...... We were shooting Precision Matches and even if the Projectile stayed on target and we AIMed at a Center V and got a 9 o'clock 4 instead, it cost the Team Points. The Standard constructed Projectile if we aimed at the Center V and missed, it was most likely the Shooter who screwed up and we could CORRECT that. We found using the 55 gr older Rounds in the NEW M16A2 UPPER created a super result. Remember, we were shooting Paper for scores and NOT enemy combantants.
In Combat? It would probably still wound or kill the enemy and that is still a HIT. Personally I am NOT an AR man, I prefer ONE SHOT, ONE KILL. Precision shooting requires less ammo to accomplish the same job and usually with Better results.
Carlos Hathcock was a PRECISION SHOOTER.
Last edited:
NATO M 855 / SS109 ammo does NOT have an "Iron Alloy Core." Period.
Neither does it contain any Teflon.
It is a standard lead alloy core under a copper jacket with a steel penetrator under that jacket at the tip.
Neither does it contain any Teflon.
It is a standard lead alloy core under a copper jacket with a steel penetrator under that jacket at the tip.
