My G17 vs G34... I'm sooo confused.

[Lugnut]

Well I've made a decision to work on some weaker parts of my game. Longer distance training being one. So today I had a free hour and went to my local club and did some group shooting at 25 yds. Started with my G34 which seemed to be sighted in well at 25-50 feet. Well my groups weren't super but I don't usually practice at that distance so I didn't expect much. 10 shot groups (freestyle) were about 5-6"... not good. However I was able to hit the 8" steel plate pretty well at the same distance (steel being another thing that I need work on).

Now the weird part. I have a G17 that is set up with the same exact sights (.100" Dawson FO with Dawson Adj rear). It wasn't sighted in so I got it all set. Then I shot 2 5 shot groups back to back that were 2.5 and 3 inches. Figuring I might have just been getting the hand of it... I grabbed the G34 and shot another 6+" group!!! Time to go home.

The only other bummer was the rear sight on the G17 was not centered (moved to the right a bit) when sighted in properly... I'd think I wasn't getting enough finger on the trigger but the groups were so good.

The more I work at this game the more I find I can't figure it out....

 

[Supermoto]

Is the Barrel on the 34 in good shape? Are the triggers the same? You would think the 34 would be more accurate at the longer range, but sometimes things don't work out as you expect.... shoot the gun that shoots best for you

 

[Lugnut]

Is the Barrel on the 34 in good shape? Are the triggers the same? You would think the 34 would be more accurate at the longer range, but sometimes things don't work out as you expect.... shoot the gun that shoots best for you

I should have mentioned.. triggers are the same- Vanek drop in (the G17 feels a tad smoother) and the barrels are both new although I haven't cleaned the barrel in the 34 in a bit. Damn strange. I'll get some more range testing to validate these results before I jump to any conclusions.

 

[Supermoto]

If you can shoot a good group with one gun, then you can with the other, benchrest them both, see if there is still a difference. If they shoot the same, then you need to find out what you are doing different. How new is the 34 to you? are you trying to keep the longer sight radius to still and snapping at the trigger?

 

[zerodown]

Sounds like that 34 is just not right for you. If you want I can take it off your hands and that will solve the problem.

 

[Lugnut]

If you can shoot a good group with one gun, then you can with the other, benchrest them both, see if there is still a difference. If they shoot the same, then you need to find out what you are doing different. How new is the 34 to you? are you trying to keep the longer sight radius to still and snapping at the trigger?

Ransom rest or bench is next- it's making me crazed. The 34 is a few months old and the 17 is newer. The 17 and 34 have the same frame/trigger the only difference is the slide/barrels.

There was no snapping the trigger today... this was all slow fire. Front sight, front sight, squeeze, front sight, squeeze, front sight, bang.

My shots tend to drop when I shoot faster... these were all where they were supposed to be.

Maybe it's just some freaky thing. I'll clean em both and then test more- just not sure when I can get to it now.

 

[Lugnut]

Sounds like that 34 is just not right for you. If you want I can take it off your hands and that will solve the problem.

Only if the groups get worse.

 

[Supermoto]

Well you know you can shoot a good group, so its something with the gun or the way the guns shoots for you. use the 17 for matches until you get it all squared away. you need to know where your gun is hitting and that you can make the shots.

 

[Cuz]

If you have the same sights on both guns then consider this, the front sight is almost an inch further away on the G34, which means that there is more white space on each side of the post when you are trying to make a precision shot at long range. That could be why you get a bigger group with that gun. On the G17 there is less space around the front post when you look thru the rear sight so you get a "tighter" sight picture. The narrow front post you are using wasn't made for precision shooting at long distances, it was designed for fast target acquisition at close to medium USPSA target distances. I went thru this same scenario with my G17 and G34 until I "rationalized" that the extra distance was creating the illusion of a smaller front sight which was harder to center in the rear sight for precision shots at long distances. This may, or may not be what you are experiencing.
-Cuz.

 

[TY43215]

If your hits are centered on the target and the group is 6" it is good enough for action pistol. Work on the trigger control and the size will drop. Smallest target you need to hit consistently is a head shot.

 

[Lugnut]

That's an interesting point that I hadn't thought of. I was shooting very slow so I was sure I was getting the post centered well but being off a tad could be the difference I guess. They do make wider sights ranging from .115 to .125. Matter of fact I think Sevigny makes/resells the .115 front sights I believe (he shoots G34).

I realize it's not the ideal sight for accuracy... I was just surprised at the variation between the two guns. Maybe it was a fluke... but I'll test some more for sure.

Did you switch to the G17 or put a wider sight on your G34?

Thanks!

If you have the same sights on both guns then consider this, the front sight is almost an inch further away on the G34, which means that there is more white space on each side of the post when you are trying to make a precision shot at long range. That could be why you get a bigger group with that gun. On the G17 there is less space around the front post when you look thru the rear sight so you get a "tighter" sight picture. The narrow front post you are using wasn't made for precision shooting at long distances, it was designed for fast target acquisition at close to medium USPSA target distances. I went thru this same scenario with my G17 and G34 until I "rationalized" that the extra distance was creating the illusion of a smaller front sight which was harder to center in the rear sight for precision shots at long distances. This may, or may not be what you are experiencing.
-Cuz.

 

[Lugnut]

If your hits are centered on the target and the group is 6" it is good enough for action pistol. Work on the trigger control and the size will drop. Smallest target you need to hit consistently is a head shot.

Yeah, I hear ya. Always, always keep working on this. I think trigger control is the single most challenging aspect of any shooting.

However there is also the mental aspect of the game... and although I KNOW I need more work than any gun I shoot... but it's a confidence/mental thing too. I've been shooting the G34 the best out of any guns I've used in the last two years... now I'm just not sure if a switch is in the future. More testing ahead....

 

[M1911]

I would try it from a benchrest. If you are still having problems with the 34 when compared with the 17 using the same ammo on the same day, then I believe it is a gun problem.

 

[GTOShootr]

What Cuz says makes a lot of sense. There should be info on that front sight width topic on the BE forum, especially with the 6" guns being the big trend these days.

Smallest target you need to hit consistently is a head shot.

You've got to think of the A zone rectangle within the head as the smallest target. There's a two point difference in A vs B shooting minor, and after last weekend, I'm scrounging for every point!

 

[TY43215]

Look close at the scores. The differences were between Mikes and hits. At your level I agree A & B make a difference but at other levels worrying about group size smaller that a head is wasted energy. Those shots will come and will also improve the A/B problem

Lugnut, if you want to lower your group size, join a Bulls eye league this winter.

 

[Cuz]

That's an interesting point that I hadn't thought of. I was shooting very slow so I was sure I was getting the post centered well but being off a tad could be the difference I guess. They do make wider sights ranging from .115 to .125. Matter of fact I think Sevigny makes/resells the .115 front sights I believe (he shoots G34).

Did you switch to the G17 or put a wider sight on your G34?
Thanks!

Lugnut,
I recently switched from Dawson adjustables to Sevigny Competition fixed sights on my two primary competition Glocks. I have the black rears on both with a plain black front on my G17 and the fibre optic front on my G34. I shoot mainly the G34 and I don't worry about my groups at 25 yds as it really doesn't matter for Production division USPSA matches or for the falling steel matches I shoot. All the targets are fairly big and much closer than 25 yds. I mentioned it to you as it was an observation I made during my accuracy practice with the two guns when I noticed a difference in groups between the two.

If you want to try the .125 wide Dawson fibre optic I bet your groups would improve, and I believe I have one. I still have the Dawsons on some other Glocks as it will take me a while to transition them all to the Sevigny sights if I ever even get around to it.

-Cuz.

 

[Lugnut]

Lugnut, if you want to lower your group size, join a Bulls eye league this winter.

I hear you. At my local club they don't allow drawing from the holster, shooting rapid fire, etc. So in essence when I shoot there... I do bullseye now to some extent. However- I spend too much time shooting at 25' and need to spend more at 50' and 75' for sure!

 

[Lugnut]

Thanks Cuz- I too have a .125" spare that I ordered and then decided I wanted the .100". I'll do some more testing to see what I want to do.

Thanks

Lugnut,
I recently switched from Dawson adjustables to Sevigny Competition fixed sights on my two primary competition Glocks. I have the black rears on both with a plain black front on my G17 and the fibre optic front on my G34. I shoot mainly the G34 and I don't worry about my groups at 25 yds as it really doesn't matter for Production division USPSA matches or for the falling steel matches I shoot. All the targets are fairly big and much closer than 25 yds. I mentioned it to you as it was an observation I made during my accuracy practice with the two guns when I noticed a difference in groups between the two.

If you want to try the .125 wide Dawson fibre optic I bet your groups would improve, and I believe I have one. I still have the Dawsons on some other Glocks as it will take me a while to transition them all to the Sevigny sights if I ever even get around to it.

-Cuz.

 

[TY43215]

I hear you. At my local club they don't allow drawing from the holster, shooting rapid fire, etc. So in essence when I shoot there... I do bullseye now to some extent. However- I spend too much time shooting at 25' and need to spend more at 50' and 75' for sure!

What I am suggesting is an organized league. 22lr Gallery. Slow fire, timed fire, and rapid fire. I also suggest you find a new club

 

[PistolPete]

Lugnut is also a member at Harvard so he has the ability to practice doing draws etc.

Dave- I think your problem is that you need a new gun:

I"m just kidding. But, if you're going to shoot a plastic gun shoot a real mans plastic gun:

HAHA

Seriously, though what Cuz is saying makes a ton of sense. Another thing to keep in mind that the way the gun recoils could be causing you to press the trigger in a differernt way between the two guns. Accuracy is EXTREMELY important in this sport and without it you will never compete at the upper levels. However, there aren't too many stages that have long range shots. But, this past weekend at Westfield we had a fairly long range stage which was great to see.

I wouldn't spend as much time working on shooting groups at long distances. Work on calling your shots all the time. This will make ALL the difference in this game. You can work on calling your shots even in slow fire. Put up a USPSA or IDPA target, align your sights, press the trigger and watch the front sight lift. When the sight lifts without looking at the target call where you believe the bullet impacted. Check your target and see if you are correct. Learning to call your shots on EVERY shot is prob. the MOST important aspect of this and any action/speed shooting game.

Pete

 

[Lugnut]

Good advice everyone. I appreciate the great information.

Pete- I really, really wish you would stop posting pics of your limited gun... it makes me very jealous! I have some goals to achieve before limited guns.

One thing I did notice shooting at 25 yds... I actually was able to call many of my shots. I could see where the sights were just before it went bang. Sometimes they had dropped... sometimes the front sight was too high. That was a cool part of the testing. Although with 9mm holes at 25 yards... it made a lot of walking back and forth to validate the calls... LOL.

I must admit I still need to find out why the differences between the two guns is so significant. I get obsessed over this hole shooting thing!!!

 

[Cuz]

What I am suggesting is an organized league. 22lr Gallery. Slow fire, timed fire, and rapid fire. I also suggest you find a new club

I just shot a bullseye gallery match tonight using centerfire guns at 25 yds. Man, that game is HARD! I shot a poor 219 using my SVI Limited gun and Major PF ammo. The guys on the side of me weren't too happy with my ammo. And, I had to shoot it in the dark because they turn the lights way down cause everyone else had a dot. Oops, I guess I've strayed a bit off topic. Maybe I should have tried it with my G17L with the .125 wide front sight. There, that may bring it back around.

Lugnut, if you ever want to try out the Sevigny sights let me know. I was hooked on the Dawson's until I tried these, now I've been converted.

-Cuz.

 

[drew]

Trigger press means everything when shooting, even though they might be the same trigger press, their different if you know what I mean? The g34 should have about a 3.5 trigger press, the front sight problem cuz is talking about makes perfectly good sense, try shooting some different ammo too... try some different gr weights... Rare, but maybe the g34 is a little finicky.... just some food for thought....

 

[Negotiator]

Dave - the one relief I get from reading these posts is the knowledge that there is, in fact, someone out there more obsessed with this than me

 

[Lugnut]

So true, so true. Case in point... you know I shouldn't be reading this now. However... obsession can lead to hard work which should yield positive results. The problem is this is not always the case and sometimes there are set backs and frustrations.. but one must continue to charge forward. I'm happy with the G17 in it's debut.

Dave - the one relief I get from reading these posts is the knowledge that there is, in fact, someone out there more obsessed with this than me