Mass. DFW public hearing 3/22

[pupchow]

from their newsletter...

March 22 -- Fisheries and Wildlife Board Meeting and Hearing , Westborough. The March meeting of the Fisheries & Wildlife Board will be held on Tuesday, March 22, 2011, at noon at the MassWildlife Field Headquarters, 1 Rabbit Hill Rd (off North Drive) in Westborough. This location is handicapped accessible. If there is inclement weather, the meeting will be held Wednesday, March 23, 2011 at the same time and location. Call (508) 389-6300 for inclement weather postponement.

Public Hearing, Westborough. A Public Hearing will be held by the Fisheries and Wildlife Board on Tuesday, March 22 beginning at 3 PM at MassWildlife Field Headquarters, 1 Rabbit Hill Rd (off North Drive) in Westborough, regarding proposed revisions to the deer hunting regulations administered by the Division of Fisheries and Wildlife. The regulation revisions propose the allowance of the use of break-open breech muzzleloaders which have become widely available and popular. This facility is handicapped accessible.

 

[NFD9]

Is GOAL attending?
Didn't they ask for clarification on this regulation?

 

[Coyote33]

Since it is an open hearing, can we get them to allow rifle hunting in Mass. while we are at it? Heck, I'd settle for rifle hunting west of the Eastern border of Worcester County.

Can we also get them to allow .22 Magnum, .17HMR, and all other rimfire in place of any language about .22LR only? It is time to fix this.

How about correcting the language about "no larger than .38 caliber at night, where mammals may be found"?

 

[NFD9]

Anyone going?
I plan on attending, I would love to see this pass.

 

[Coyote33]

How did it go?

 

[NFD9]

How did it go?

Everyone that spoke was in favor, not one opposition. Even The EPO's went on record with a recommendation of yes to the change.
Looked like it will be a yes vote by the board.

 

[Coyote33]

Which regulations? What is the difference between regulations and laws? Can a public hearing change the law? Or does this just allow the change to go on a ballot question? If this can change things, can we use this mechanism to change any of the other ones such as those mentioned in post 3?

 

[NFD9]

Which regulations?

from their newsletter...
Public Hearing, regarding proposed revisions to the deer hunting regulations administered by the Division of Fisheries and Wildlife. The regulation revisions propose the allowance of the use of break-open breech muzzleloaders which have become widely available and popular.

What is the difference between regulations and laws? Can a public hearing change the law? Or does this just allow the change to go on a ballot question? If this can change things, can we use this mechanism to change any of the other ones such as those mentioned in post 3?

Not sure.

I think you would have found the answers at the meeting though.

 

[m16]

Everyone that spoke was in favor, not one opposition. Even The EPO's went on record with a recommendation of yes to the change.
Looked like it will be a yes vote by the board.

Anyone know were to find the vote results?

Who was the EPO at the meeting?

 

[NFD9]

Who was the EPO at the meeting?

There were a few.
Honestly don't remember, but even if I did, I wouldn't feel right about posting their name on the web.
I will say, they were very polite and professional.

 

[dwarven1]

Since it is an open hearing, can we get them to allow rifle hunting in Mass. while we are at it? Heck, I'd settle for rifle hunting west of the Eastern border of Worcester County.

Can we also get them to allow .22 Magnum, .17HMR, and all other rimfire in place of any language about .22LR only? It is time to fix this.

How about correcting the language about "no larger than .38 caliber at night, where mammals may be found"?

Why didn't you go and try to get this done yourself?

 

[Coyote33]

Why didn't you go and try to get this done yourself?

I have other fish to fry this month. That said, how does one arrange a public hearing, for future reference?

Also, by regulation, does this mean CMR's? Hunting laws? Something else?

 

[jdubois]

What is the difference between regulations and laws?

Laws (a.k.a. statutes) are written and voted on by the legislature. Regulations are written by various government agencies without a vote, and are given their power by specific statutes already on the books. Regulations carry the full force of whatever statute they are drawn up under, however if a regulation conflicts with any statute, the statute takes precedence.

For instance, the legislature created the Chapter 131 Fish and Game laws, some of which give the Department of Fish and Game the power to create regulations which further clarify and define how to carry out those laws. The statute C. 131 § 5 declares that there will be hunting seasons. This statute gives the power to MassWildlife to create regulations on what those seasons are. That regulation is 321 CMR 3:00.

Can a public hearing change the law?

No. You can certainly influence laws and regulations through public hearings, but laws cannot be changed without the approval of the legislature. Some states (including Massachusetts) have Initiative and Referendum powers which allow the people to enact and/or repeal laws by public vote, however Massachusetts is an "indirect" state, which means even if an initiative or referendum is passed, it still has to be voted on by the legislature before it takes effect.

Regulations, however, do not need to go through the legislature to be changed. The department in charge of the regulation just needs to rewrite them (as long as they continue to not conflict with any statute).

 

[NFD9]

I have other fish to fry this month.

'
Don't we all ?
Everyone there took the time.

 

[Coyote33]

Thank you jdubois, for the clarification. and thank you 69hdfl, for attending and doing your part in this big mess know as Massachusetts laws and regulations.

So, jdubois, any of these Fish and Wildlife "regulations", which "control the laws", can be changed at will? All it takes is a big enough group to convince (pressure, lobby, sell) the regulating board (committee?) to do it?

To 69hdfl, do you have the specific "regulations" which were discussed and amended at this meeting?

Also, one final question, are these "regulations" what are known as CMR's?

 

[jdubois]

So, jdubois, any of these Fish and Wildlife "regulations", which "control the laws", can be changed at will? All it takes is a big enough group to convince (pressure, lobby, sell) the regulating board (committee?) to do it?

Yup. But there are plenty of statutory restrictions upon what the regulations can say. Remember, statutes always come first, and regulations only have as much power as the statutes give them.

Also, one final question, are these "regulations" what are known as CMR's?

Yup. CMR = Code of Massachusetts Regulations

 

[NFD9]

To 69hdfl, do you have the specific "regulations" which were discussed and amended at this meeting?

The regulation revisions propose the allowance of the use of break-open breech muzzleloaders during the muzzleloader season

This was the only thing discussed at the public hearing, what was discussed by the board in executive session I have no idea.

 

[Coyote33]

Here are the deer hunting regulations:
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/regulations/cmr/cmr_300.htm#3024

Is this the part under discussion?

4. The primitive firearms period of the open season is intended to provide an opportunity to hunt deer in a manner similar to the way our forefathers hunted in the mid-1800's. The primary consideration is to limit the weapons to a type similar to those in common use during that period of history. Basically, that means a single-shot, muzzle-loading firearm with no break-open breech and limited range and firepower. Secondarily, the hunter participating in this season should have a relative degree of solitude significantly different from the hunting pressure which is characteristic of the shotgun deer season.

Beginning the third Monday after Thanksgiving and ending on December 31, all days inclusive, deer may be hunted only by means of a primitive firearm using a single lead projectile, or by means of a bow and arrow. Black powder (or synthetic substances such as "pyrodex" which are approved for competitive muzzle-loading meets by the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association) is the only powder to be used during this season. Primitive firearms may have smooth or rifled bores and shall not contain more than one usable barrel. In the case of primitive firearms with double bore barrels, one barrel shall be made inoperative by removal of the nipple and hammer. The caliber of a primitive firearm shall be not less than .44 nor more than .775 and only those primitive firearms having a barrel length of 18 inches or longer shall be permitted. A person shall not, except during the paraplegic and shotgun deer seasons, have in his or her possession a shotgun shell loaded with a rifled slug, single ball, buckshot of any size, BB shot or air rifle shot in any place where birds or mammals might be found, except on a skeet, trap or target range between sunrise and sunset, and except for the hunting of waterfowl or coyote as provided in 321 CMR 2.03. During the primitive firearm season, nothing in 321 CMR 3.02(4) shall prevent the otherwise lawful hunting of birds and mammals in accordance with established statutes and regulations.

Any idea what they changed? I imagine the LESS they put (more they take out), the better, right?



Also, what about black powder for bear? Was this included, or no?
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/regulations/cmr/cmr_300.htm#3021

(i) Hunting Implements:

During that period of the open season beginning the first Tuesday after Labor Day in September and ending on the third Saturday thereafter, a person may hunt black bear only by means of: a bow and arrow; or a rifle .23 caliber or larger; or a muzzle-loading firearm, fired from the shoulder and not less than .44 caliber nor greater than .775 caliber; or a revolver chambered to take .357 Magnum cartridges, using only .357 Magnum cartridges, or a revolver chambered .40 caliber or larger.
During that period of the open season beginning the first Monday in November and ending the third Saturday thereafter, a person may hunt black bear only by means of a bow and arrow; or a rifle .23 caliber or larger; or a muzzle-loading firearm, fired from the shoulder and not less than .44 caliber nor greater than .775 caliber.

 

[NFD9]

Is this the part under discussion?

Yes,
This is what (underlined in red) they are removing.

4.The primitive firearms period of the open season is intended to provide an opportunity to hunt deer in a manner similar to the way our forefathers hunted in the mid-1800's. The primary consideration is to limit the weapons to a type similar to those in common use during that period of history. Basically, that means a single-shot, muzzle-loading firearm with no break-open breech and limited range and firepower. Secondarily, the hunter participating in this season should have a relative degree of solitude significantly different from the hunting pressure which is characteristic of the shotgun deer season.

The above pertains to The primitive firearms period.

Also, what about black powder for bear? Was this included, or no?

You can already use a rifle for bear, why wouldn't you be able to use a break-open breech muzzleloader?

Feel free to call them with you questions.

Division of Fisheries & Wildlife
Field Headquarters, 1 Rabbit Hill Rd
Westborough, MA 01581
Tel: (508) 389-6300 Fax: (508) 389-7890

 

[Woodsloafer]

Here is the link to the language changes in the regulations - the changes are in red:

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/calendar/hearings/pdf/cmr_muzzleloader_red.pdf

 

[Coyote33]

Here is the link to the language changes in the regulations - the changes are in red:

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/calendar/hearings/pdf/cmr_muzzleloader_red.pdf

They probably could have chopped off the entire end of that, including "and has limited range and fire power.".


We really need to hold these public servants responsible, and make them hold hearings to correct and simplify all this extraneous language on a biannual basis.

 

[SAV]

Just read the above link. Can you hunt with a bow and muzzleloader on Sundays? Only on shotgun was the exclusion specific.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

Just read the above link. Can you hunt with a bow and muzzleloader on Sundays? Only on shotgun was the exclusion specific.

There is no Sunday hunting in Mass.

Bob

 

[Coyote33]

There is no Sunday hunting in Mass.

Bob

I think that is by law, not regulation, though.

 

[boilermaker]

Thought I would bump this thread. It seems break-opens are now legal in Mass!

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/calendar/hearings/muzzleloader_hearing.htm

At the bottom is the update

 

[Coyote33]

Thanks to those of you who attended and helped make this happen.

Anyone here know how one might get them to open up more hearings for reform of other regulations?

 

[boilermaker]

I don't know what the impetus for changing the break-open law so I am not sure how one goes about having them review further regs. You could always call DFW

 

[jadek]

Any info on when the new regs take effect?? O see no dates..

 

[davemata]

Any chance they'd be open to a hearing on using a rifle for hunting in at least part of the state? They allow it for bear and other species, can't be any different in allowing it for deer.

 

[Coyote33]

See posts 3, 7, 15, and the answers there. Some of them were not answered, like how does one trigger one of these hearings?