MA shut down well into June???.....Wife’s work says so.

Evadd said:
You really have no idea what you're talking about. You can certainly find a graph or two to support your case, but you're absolutely dead wrong. I work in an ICU in a large tertiary hospital in Mass. We are bursting. EDs are a mess. Intubated patients with nowhere to go. ICU patients being housed in PACUs and other makeshift areas. Non-ICU-trained physicians are caring for ICU patients. There's a shortage of equipment, including PPE for staff. We discuss the actual numbers of COVID and ICU patients every day with facts, not sourced from any news station.

I know this won't change your mind, because you had it made up before any of this started. The amount of blind denial some people have staggers me.

Actually, it just dawned on me - didn't you mention you have Asperger's?
  • lack of social awareness
  • inability to infer the thoughts, feelings, or emotions of others
Not trying to be a dick, but a lot of your comments may make sense now.
Click to expand...
You got any numbers to support that emotional flailing?
 
babygorilla said:
You got any numbers to support that emotional flailing?
Click to expand...
[laugh]
Zero emotion in my post. Just reporting what I see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears every single day. I'll see what I can share with you "everyone's out to get me!" types without violating HIPAA.
 
babygorilla said:
Healthcare and society in 1918 cannot be compared to 2020. This information is useless.
Click to expand...
I've been saying that all along. The sharing of information between a group took weeks not milliseconds. Science and technology is night and day.
It's the dumbest comparison one could ever make.
 
Evadd said:
[laugh]
Zero emotion in my post. Just reporting what I see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears every single day. I'll see what I can share with you "everyone's out to get me!" types without violating HIPAA.
Click to expand...
Hate to tell you, but anything you anecdotally post without facts and data to back it up is emotional flailing. Hell, you even attacked his being an Aspie.......
 
Asaltweapon said:
I've been saying that all along. The sharing of information between a group took weeks not milliseconds. Science and technology is night and day.
It's the dumbest comparison one could ever make.
Click to expand...
We also cannot be compared to Italy with the same virus. There is literally no other nation that is equivalent to ours. Some are better at certain things, some are worse.
 
babygorilla said:
Hate to tell you, but anything you anecdotally post without facts and data to back it up is emotional flailing. Hell, you even attacked his being an Aspie.......
Click to expand...
That's funny you think that - there was zero emotion in my post, and your twisting of the definition of "emotional" changes that in no way.

And I didn't attack anyone. I was struggling to understand how someone can just flatly deny that people are suffering, and then it hit me. It just made more sense then.
 
Evadd said:
You really have no idea what you're talking about. You can certainly find a graph or two to support your case, but you're absolutely dead wrong. I work in an ICU in a large tertiary hospital in Mass. We are bursting. EDs are a mess. Intubated patients with nowhere to go. ICU patients being housed in PACUs and other makeshift areas. Non-ICU-trained physicians are caring for ICU patients. There's a shortage of equipment, including PPE for staff. We discuss the actual numbers of COVID and ICU patients every day with facts, not sourced from any news station.

I know this won't change your mind, because you had it made up before any of this started. The amount of blind denial some people have staggers me.

Actually, it just dawned on me - didn't you mention you have Asperger's?
  • lack of social awareness
  • inability to infer the thoughts, feelings, or emotions of others
Not trying to be a dick, but a lot of your comments may make sense now.
Click to expand...
You're speaking of your anecdotal experience at your facility. That isn't the case everywhere. It isn't in most other places, in fact. I've quoted actual numbers from here in Connecticut, as reported by the Governor's office. I'm not pulling them out of my ass. Peak utilization was 22.3% (and again that's regular staffed beds, and doesn't count the special facilities that were built). We're down to 19.1% as of yesterday.

The hospital ship in NY is going home. It wasn't needed.

Are there very sick people? Of course. Is this virus a nothingburger? Of course not. But actions have consequences. Patients needing treatments/tests for other ailments are having those punted to some unknown date in the future. That's detrimental to their health. That's a cost. Their not having those done is hitting underutilized hospitals and clinics HARD financially. Some may have to close. THAT's a cost, and a bona-fide public health crisis! Closed businesses (some permanent)? Costs. Suicides? Substance abuse? COSTS!

And re: Asperger's: yes, you're being a dick.
 
babygorilla said:
We also cannot be compared to Italy with the same virus. There is literally no other nation that is equivalent to ours. Some are better at certain things, some are worse.
Click to expand...
300 feet away from me right now is a family. The husband is from Italy and his 81 yo mother was visiting. Her Visa is well past expired but nothing to worry about. The fact is that in Italy, if you were old you were not getting any healthcare. Period. Its a fact they have a huge smoking population. Italy's border protection is worse than ours.
 
SpaceCritter said:
You're speaking of your anecdotal experience at your facility. That isn't the case everywhere. It isn't in most other places, in fact. I've quoted actual numbers from here in Connecticut, as reported by the Governor's office. I'm not pulling them out of my ass. Peak utilization was 22.3% (and again that's regular staffed beds, and doesn't count the special facilities that were built). We're down to 19.1% as of yesterday.

The hospital ship in NY is going home. It wasn't needed.

Are there very sick people? Of course. Is this virus a nothingburger? Of course not. But actions have consequences. Patients needing treatments/tests for other ailments are having those punted to some unknown date in the future. That's detrimental to their health. That's a cost. Their not having those done is hitting underutilized hospitals and clinics HARD financially. Some may have to close. THAT's a cost, and a bona-fide public health crisis! Closed businesses (some permanent)? Costs. Suicides? Substance abuse? COSTS!

And re: Asperger's: yes, you're being a dick.
Click to expand...
Re: your last point - I apologize and will edit my post. It will obviously live on in the quote, but I will remove it.
 
MaverickNH said:
Spring and Fall are not independent events. What strain of virus is where this Fall, and what it does to us, depends on what‘s already happened and what will happen between now and then. ...“reopen everything now” means different things to different people.
Click to expand...
Our goals for Covid-19 have been to Limit and Delay exposure to Covid-19 in order to avoid overwhelming of medical facilities, limiting fatalities that would result from crashing the health system, and giving the research community time to identify treatments and develop vaccine(s). Essentially, Buying time.

I am not aware that anyone believed or stated a goal to contain / prevent all Covid-19 infections. Most (perhaps all ?) in the medical / infectious communities disease believe that is simply not possible. To that point, there will be a second wave. Epidemiologist have been including a second wave in all the models I've seen since Feb. Perhaps working in Pharma has given me early awareness of this but presentations by our Chief Medical Ofcr included second wave modelling in his first briefing in Feb or first week of Mar. I think a second wave is unavoidable given the much greater rate of infection and especially asymptomatic infection, now being identified from community level serology/antibody testing which has expanded beyond those presenting with symptoms.

Still, There has been a consistent downward revision to # Cases, Fatalities and Fatality Rates all the epidemiology models. Data continues to indicate our efforts to delay progression of Covid-19 seem to be proving effective. You even see doctors talking about the virus as "wimpy", "easy to kill" with soap, alcohol, UV Light, etc. and not as dangerous as once believed outside specific risk groups. Additonally, we are learning how to respond and treat Covid patients and more are moving to recovery.

So the question isn't whether or not to re-open, but how and with what conditions. Too Many, especially much of 'News Media' talk in absolutes. Open vs. Closed, Quarantine vs. Free-for-all, etc . I don't know anyone proposing to re-open that is advocating free-for-all return to pre-covid behaviors, at least not all at once.

Here's my view:
  • Swap Lock-Down, Shelter in place, Quarantine of All to Cocooning for those at risk
  • Open businesses, hospitals, manufacturing in regions that are NOT experiencing NYC like volumes that stress the medical system nowe and progressively in to more impacted regions as infection rates allow. You cant treat Wyoming, Idaho, Vermont the same way you treated NYC - they are starkly different.
  • Stress frequent sanitizing of business locations, hard services that are in common contact with employees, customers, etc
  • On a company to company basis depending on their physical operations, have business who open institute their plans to limit contacts in ways consistent with social distancing. These can include:
    • Limiting patrons at any point in time
    • Instituting a 'By Appointment' program
    • Erecting barriers at points of close contact (e.g. retail check out counter)
    • Adopting touchless payment media, Online orders with pre-payment
  • Implement the above methods more rigorously in regions with broader and higher community infection rates (County level at least)
  • Stress and require the Social Distancing Rules for individuals (6-10 ft, Frequent Hand Washing, Masks for those who are/might be sick or exposed, etc)
  • Treat people like Citizens, not subjects... We all have skin in the game so leverage that to persuade folks to do the right thing
    • Yes some wont, but that's they're choice and they most endanger themselves and their 'community' but that already exists under current approach
When you begin to look at the options and steps that can be taken to reduce transmission, and the hazards presented by Not Re-Opening (Food supply chains already at risk, production of important but not first line medical supplies all but stopped) the pathway seems clear. Let's advocate broad re-opening of businesses with implementation for protections needed and available to us. It is at this point the Less Risky path.
 
Evadd said:
That's funny you think that - there was zero emotion in my post, and your twisting of the definition of "emotional" changes that in no way.

And I didn't attack anyone. I was struggling to understand how someone can just flatly deny that people are suffering, and then it hit me. It just made more sense then.
Click to expand...
This sentence alone shows the vested emotion. "Not trying to be a dick, but a lot of your comments may make sense now." North version of "Bless your heart"
 
Evadd said:
You really have no idea what you're talking about. You can certainly find a graph or two to support your case, but you're absolutely dead wrong. I work in an ICU in a large tertiary hospital in Mass. We are bursting. EDs are a mess. Intubated patients with nowhere to go. ICU patients being housed in PACUs and other makeshift areas. Non-ICU-trained physicians are caring for ICU patients. There's a shortage of equipment, including PPE for staff. We discuss the actual numbers of COVID and ICU patients every day with facts, not sourced from any news station.

I know this won't change your mind, because you had it made up before any of this started. The amount of blind denial some people have staggers me.
Click to expand...

Does your hospital publish any kind of public information about case volume over time? I work at VA hospital and it's pretty much a ghost town, which is weird given the older patient population. None of the converted units have been seen Covid patients to my knowledge. Not being argumentative, just trying to figure out the dichotomy, and I value the insight of an ICU doc for stuff like this.
 
  • Stress frequent sanitizing of business locations, hard services that are in common contact with employees, customers, etc
Click to expand...

And we're all gonna get santizing wipes from. . . . . . the yentas that hoarded them last month like they were replacing their bowl of Skittles with them???
 
MaverickNH said:
Spring and Fall are not independent events. What strain of virus is where this Fall, and what it does to us, depends on what‘s already happened and what will happen between now and then. Things *do* appear to getting better, and never got to 1918 proportions. But we didn’t intentionally load 100s of thousands of soldiers on long train rides, packed tight for days, to all points in the US and Europe this time either. What we see today is a results of what we did. If we did it different, it might be worse, better or the same - we cannot know. We can only change what we do next.

Reopen?
Everything?
Now?

Any graded reopening, relaxing of social distancing, or just “cold turkey”?

Sure, anyone with risks factors who doesn’t want to go back to work can just stay home. No Unemployment for you?
If you want to wear a mask, go ahead?
If you want to wash your hands, wait until break/lunch?
If you want to use wipes/sanitizer, bring your own?

Just and those who “support the 2ndA“ vary between “uninfringed means uninfringed” and “National Guard militia“ in their read of the 2ndA, “reopen everything now” means different things to different people.

Not getting up in your face - just looking for your position.
Click to expand...
I would immediately cancel the closure order, provided people are wearing masks. Keep the common sense recommendations in place - hand washing, stay home if showing any symptoms, ...

The unemployment extensions have already been promised, and should remain. That said, most people want to get back to work. Even with the extensions, they're not made whole.

A much bigger question: when will people's faith in going out and not getting sick return? Personally, if allowed to, I'd be at the gym tomorrow morning, wearing a mask, and doing what I did long before this thing: hitting the equipment with sanitizer before and after use. My old man, OTOH, won't even do takeout, let alone have a sit-down meal, he's that skittish. And re: the gym: March 13, my last day there, the place was all but empty. One of the older guys came in for a few minutes, and just before I was done, a woman came in to trot on the treadmill. Other than that, it was empty. So a lot of people may want to get back to work, but there may not be any work for them to do. And that's not even counting those places that couldn't afford to go for month and a half, two, three months without revenue, and are now closed permanently.

Re: 1918: this thing didn't come anywhere near close to it. You've mentioned a lot of the reasons why. Re: the fall: we need to watch the southern hemisphere. The upshot for down there: unlike north of the Tropic of Cancer, there just aren't a lot of major population centers south of the Tropic of Capricorn. Nevertheless, it looks like what I was afraid was going to happen, is happening: it's beginning to pop in Brazil.
 
SpaceCritter said:
Be nice. [laugh]

I will say this, though: one of my superpowers is ability to see patterns, which is why I'm harping on the vitamin D thing as much as I am.
Click to expand...

I am nice, just in a mean way.

I also love patterns, my eyes love to pick out patterns. I find four-leaf clovers all the time, and I had a side business where I was reselling interesting phone numbers, picking dialpad patterns and keypad words out from a wholesale list. Finding stuff like that makes my brain feel good, hard to describe.
 
Jambrose said:
yea so myself and other businesses I know won't be abiding by this and will be going back to work on the 4th like originally planned. Other businesses in our complex have been working for weeks now already and none are essential. We will social distance, wear masks, ect, but Its come to a point that either sit on our ass and watch our business be destroyed/no longer exist, or do something about it and deal with the consequences should they come up. I'll go down fighting at this point...
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity what is your business?
 
It looks like they're looking to add to the numbers. I wonder how much time and money will be spent on this.
www.telegram.com

Unreported COVID-19 deaths eyes

BOSTON - Gov. Charlie Baker said Wednesday that he generally agrees with federal officials who suggested COVID-19 deaths are probably being undercounted in the hardest-hit states, including Massachus…
www.telegram.com
 
wahsben said:
It looks like they're looking to add to the numbers. I wonder how much time and money will be spent on this.
www.telegram.com

Unreported COVID-19 deaths eyes

BOSTON - Gov. Charlie Baker said Wednesday that he generally agrees with federal officials who suggested COVID-19 deaths are probably being undercounted in the hardest-hit states, including Massachus…
www.telegram.com
Click to expand...
Yup, they're goosing. They're going to take those deaths-as-consequence-of-shutdown and call them COVID-19. Supposed to have a cardiac procedure but it was canceled cuz Wuhan, and you have a heart attack? COVID-19. Missed colonoscopy so get colon cancer and die? COVID-19. (Okay, that one may be delayed a bit.) You'll know they've reached the pinnacle of chicanery when suicides due to out of work get coded COVID-19.
 
SpaceCritter said:
Yup, they're goosing. They're going to take those deaths-as-consequence-of-shutdown and call them COVID-19. Supposed to have a cardiac procedure but it was canceled cuz Wuhan, and you have a heart attack? COVID-19. Missed colonoscopy so get colon cancer and die? COVID-19. (Okay, that one may be delayed a bit.) You'll know they've reached the pinnacle of chicanery when suicides due to out of work get coded COVID-19.
Click to expand...

Whose making money here?
 
SpaceCritter said:
Yup, they're goosing. They're going to take those deaths-as-consequence-of-shutdown and call them COVID-19. Supposed to have a cardiac procedure but it was canceled cuz Wuhan, and you have a heart attack? COVID-19. Missed colonoscopy so get colon cancer and die? COVID-19. (Okay, that one may be delayed a bit.) You'll know they've reached the pinnacle of chicanery when suicides due to out of work get coded COVID-19.
Click to expand...
They need to add numbers somehow to justify destroying the country and wiping their butts with the constitution.

Also, need higher numbers so the curve doesnt "flatten" too fast. We meed people locked in to stop Presidential debates, make voting remote, and ensure Trump is out of office.
 
Dennis in MA said:
And we're all gonna get santizing wipes from. . . . . . the yentas that hoarded them last month like they were replacing their bowl of Skittles with them???
Click to expand...
That would be fun to see their faces if someone were to 'commandeer' wipes and masks from hoarders (Not suggesting statist thugs should do so), but i don't think necessary as many ways to sanitize... Clorox diluted 3:1, Any of the liquid dish soaps ('Dawn') etc. In another thread here, someone posted finding Purell in stock yesterday. I went picking strawberries last weekend(not MA) and they had 2 gallon jugs of hand sanitizer out for use pre and post picking... Its out there.
 
Bladerunner said:
Well when you make more on UE than your regular job the economic choice is clear. Its pathetic. Dems put this into the legislation by design.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Employers will now be competing w/ UI. Why would anyone on the low end of the wage scale return to work when they're getting paid as much, if not more, for staying home? Having dealt with MA UI as an employer, I promise you no one will get kicked off UI for not returning to work in MA.
 
Bladerunner said:
Well when you make more on UE than your regular job the economic choice is clear. Its pathetic. Dems put this into the legislation by design.
Click to expand...
This is a problem too. Art Laffer says the way to go is to suspend employment taxes for both sides of equation in the near term, expiring in December for example. Supposedly Trump is interested. Employers and employees would each save 7.6% on those wages while encouraging employment activity.

Also, interesting discussion of inflation in the video.


View: https://youtu.be/Js45RgNK29g
 

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