MA legal stock pinning (yes again but hopefully different)

[Underwhere]

My Stag Arms (post ban) has a standard M4 adjustable stock on it.
It actually has no "pin" but rather just a threaded screw. So I'm wondering if a threaded screw is enough to satisfy the legal neutering of these stocks.

I have a few AR's to build and wanted to use different stocks and "pin" or semi-permanently fix them in a position. Perhaps threading it would work?

The question: If you drilled and tapped the buffer tube, removed the lever for adjustment and used a threaded screw, would it be in compliance?

The way they (Stag) "pinned" it was:
1. The buffer tube did not have any holes for the normal stocks. It was completely flat.
2. They replaced the screw in the normal collapsable stock with a threaded screw. The lever no longer works at all.
3. They drilled 1 hole in the buffer tube and threaded it making it only 1 position.
4. The extended the length of the buffer tube so that if you unscrewed the set screw (pin) and tried to shorten the length of the stock, the buffer tube itself would poke out the back.

 

[abomb60]

I always understood that a collapsible stock could be adjusted and be legal just that tools were required to make the adjustment. Just my $0.02

 

[Underwhere]

I always understood that a collapsible stock could be adjusted and be legal just that tools were required to make the adjustment. Just my $0.02

That's what I'm hoping to conclude as well.
It seems that Stag agrees (but has thrown in an extra long buffer tube and no adjusting holes on the buffer tube)

 

[abomb60]

Yeah that extra long tube is really odd. What I would do is use a normal collapsible stock and leave the lever intact. Then i'd drill from side-to-side some holes through the stock and through the bottom lip of the buffer tube but not all the way through. I'd thread these holes so a threaded hex head screw can be inserted.

At least that's how i'd do it. I'm contemplating a side-folder for my MP5 build and I figure i'll drill a hole, tap it, and insert a hex head screw to keep it locked open. Then when I go to NH to the range I can remove it and use it collapsed or expanded.

 

[glide]

Pretty sure that is how my M&P15T (MA legal) came from the factory. A pin that goes through the stock and into the receiver tube...

 

[Underwhere]

Yeah that extra long tube is really odd. What I would do is use a normal collapsible stock and leave the lever intact. Then i'd drill from side-to-side some holes through the stock and through the bottom lip of the buffer tube but not all the way through. I'd thread these holes so a threaded hex head screw can be inserted.

At least that's how i'd do it. I'm contemplating a side-folder for my MP5 build and I figure i'll drill a hole, tap it, and insert a hex head screw to keep it locked open. Then when I go to NH to the range I can remove it and use it collapsed or expanded.

Why would you drill through the sides rather than just drill from the bottom like it is right now?

Pretty sure that is how my M&P15T (MA legal) came from the factory. A pin that goes through the stock and into the receiver tube...

Through the stock from the side or the bottom? And is it a pin or is it a threaded screw?

 

[MassMark]

If you search, (I'm too lazy) in the Build It Yourself forum, I posted this question before I decided on a Sully Stock, (awesome) - and got a great diagram from a member what didn't involve all the muckety-muck. It was pinning the adjustment lever so it would not operate..Much easier....

 

[Underwhere]

If you search, (I'm too lazy) in the Build It Yourself forum, I posted this question before I decided on a Sully Stock, (awesome) - and got a great diagram from a member what didn't involve all the muckety-muck. It was pinning the adjustment lever so it would not operate..Much easier....

This is what the guy said in your thread.
I unfortunately did not understand any of it.
I dont have a normal collapsable stock (nor have i seen one taken apart) so all these pins don't mean much to me. The diagram doesn't show how it is assembled does it? It looks like the pins are vertical when they should be horizontal.

See that sliding locking pin? Order a few, using a dremmel, cut it so it sits flush or below the edge of the stock surface, install, Done. Correct me if I'm wrong but that should be legal pin job.

If it needs to come out. Use a dabba S-Glue, pull it back, slide off stock over tube.

 

[Underwhere]

What are those parts called? I can't seem to find any exploded view schematics or names for those parts...(the lever, pin assembly)

 

[MassMark]

Wow...Your set-up looks like Mars to me. It does not make sense that when you collapse the stock, the buffer tube protrudes through the stock itself. Is that an optical illusion? What I think he was referring to is the pin that actually locks the stock in place, lower left). I was going to drill a hole through the locking mechanism and install another locking pin in the lever, so it would require a tool to get it out....Upon inspection, it would be impossible to collapse without. I also thought about using a drill and a rivet gun to accomplish the same thing, then when/if I moved to free state, I could just drill out the rivet...

 

[Underwhere]

Wow...Your set-up looks like Mars to me. It does not make sense that when you collapse the stock, the buffer tube protrudes through the stock itself. Is that an optical illusion? What I think he was referring to is the pin that actually locks the stock in place, lower left). I was going to drill a hole through the locking mechanism and install another locking pin in the lever, so it would require a tool to get it out....Upon inspection, it would be impossible to collapse without. I also thought about using a drill and a rivet gun to accomplish the same thing, then when/if I moved to free state, I could just drill out the rivet...

I think I know what you're saying.
For normal stocks, if you drill a hole in the lever and through the actual stock you can put a roll pin in it. That way you cannot actually depress the lever.

Unfortunately my lever does nothing right now anyway as it is from Mars. There is no spring in there, nothing.
It's not an optical illusion. It actually is 2+ inches longer than it should be.

 

[Urj]

Your rifle has the same stock set up as the M&P's come with in MA. I believe (don't quote me) that the tube is rifle length as opposed to carbine length and that is why it sticks out if you slide the stock all the way to the receiver.

I want to pin my stock a little bit shorter to fit me better but that buffer tube gets in the way. At some point I'll order a carbine buffer tube, spring, and Magpul CRT stock and pin it shorter.

 

[jval45]

I don't get what you are saying?

Anyways, would this scenario be legal:
I have a MA-Compliant AR
I want a pinned collapsible stock for a shorter stock length (and let's face it, cooler look)!

Can I go to NH, purchase a collapsible stock (legal in NH), pin it in NH, and bring it to MA to put on my MA-compliant AR? I would be bringing a "fixed" stock to MA...

OR....

Is this just not all worth it?

[sad2]

 

[Underwhere]

I don't get what you are saying?

Anyways, would this scenario be legal:
I have a MA-Compliant AR
I want a pinned collapsible stock for a shorter stock length (and let's face it, cooler look)!

Can I go to NH, purchase a collapsible stock (legal in NH), pin it in NH, and bring it to MA to put on my MA-compliant AR? I would be bringing a "fixed" stock to MA...

OR....

Is this just not all worth it?

[sad2]

I don't think there is any legality issues with owning a collapsible stock in MA. It's illegal for it to be on a rifle with another 2 characteristics of an "assault rifle"

So I think it'd be fine to order a collapsible stock, have it shipped to your place. Pin it legally in a position that you like and then swap it out for the one currently on your rifle.

 

[cekim]

I don't think there is any legality issues with owning a collapsible stock in MA. It's illegal for it to be on a rifle with another 2 characteristics of an "assault rifle"

With the usual IANAL qualification, this logic does not fly with other things...

"constructive possession" is often bandied about WRT to barrels/uppers and lowers.

Ignoring the laughable absurdity of the collapsible stock as a serious determiner of lethality (or utility at all), it would seem to me if owning an evil barrel and a post-ban lower at the same time was a fully automatic felony, so too would owning the buffer tube in question prior to modification.

It would seem to me, you should be able to have an FFL do this for you (assuming whatever overall length requirements aren't violated), but even better just get a short fixed stock with a nice padded cheek rest and call it a well inside the gray line day.

Call me paranoid, but, I wouldn't (even with gun to my head) order the parts and have them in my hands in MA... YMMV

 

[abomb60]

Where in the MGL's does it refer to constructive possession? The only time i've seen that in law is the NFA laws & ATF rulings.

 

[cekim]

The only time i've seen that in law is the NFA laws & ATF rulings.

Exactly my point - this wouldn't be the first time those words and ideas were applied...

Living in a state with Judges who make up the law as they go, these rulings seem ripe for the picking when it comes time to make the decision...

The rule of law in MA WRT to guns and prosecution seems to be "if we haven't said you can do it, you can't do it".

However wrong that may be, for the benefit of a "cool looking stock", I simply don't see it as worth it, when you can get a "cool looking stock" in the form of a shorter fixed stock and avoid the problem all-together...

As with so many laws in this state, many people happily ignore them and break them in blissful ignorance. This is the obvious result of the absurdly excessive legislation in this state. So, perhaps here more than most places - YMMV, but I just thought I would point this out since the OP clearly is trying to avoid getting in trouble (and particularly as he is being rather public about it).

 

[Underwhere]

With the usual IANAL qualification, this logic does not fly with other things...

"constructive possession" is often bandied about WRT to barrels/uppers and lowers.

Ignoring the laughable absurdity of the collapsible stock as a serious determiner of lethality (or utility at all), it would seem to me if owning an evil barrel and a post-ban lower at the same time was a fully automatic felony, so too would owning the buffer tube in question prior to modification.

It would seem to me, you should be able to have an FFL do this for you (assuming whatever overall length requirements aren't violated), but even better just get a short fixed stock with a nice padded cheek rest and call it a well inside the gray line day.

Call me paranoid, but, I wouldn't (even with gun to my head) order the parts and have them in my hands in MA... YMMV

I would call you a little paranoid but with legitimate reason

How can you pin a stock to make it legal if you don't have in front of you to pin?

What if you happen to have a pre-ban lower in your possession? Does that change things?

I should move to Montana.

 

[cekim]

How can you pin a stock to make it legal if you don't have in front of you to pin?

State's obvious answer to all such chicken-egg conundrums is "FFL, FFL, FFL" this is why the FFL's have such broad "privileges" to posses all the evil stuff...

 

[Bad13Luck]

So I can not pin a stock myself at home with a roll pin?????

 

[abomb60]

I guess it depends on your interpretation of the law. I would say that the state has no constructive possesion laws and that as long as you don't put the collapsible stock on the post-ban AR-15 you'll be fine.

Also how about this. Remove the pistol grip from your post-ban AR-15 and put the collapsible stock on and figure out what length you want it at then pin it and put the pistol grip back on. By removing the pistol grip you are removing the only "evil" feature and can therefore add another. You'll need to pin the stock in order to put the pistol grip back on .

 

[Bad13Luck]

So when building a lower at home install the stock and pin it then install the pistol grip.

 

[cekim]

So when building a lower at home install the stock and pin it then install the pistol grip.

That would be the compromise approach...

Safer than the other way around, doing it in NH would be even better

Abomb60 is absolutely correct AFAIK, it's not made clear in the law.

So, like so much of MA's broken gun laws, its a matter of if you have to "stand before the man" and when you do, will you win?

There is a mechanism to avoid the whole issue which is to throw money at the problem and have an FFL'd gunsmith do it for you. Everything else IMHO is "gray"...

 

[jval45]

And thus, we come full circle. So the real questions is - stay in Massachusetts or go to a state that is not two inches from arresting anyone on a whim?

 

[lemonlime571]

Wow...Your set-up looks like Mars to me. It does not make sense that when you collapse the stock, the buffer tube protrudes through the stock itself. Is that an optical illusion? What I think he was referring to is the pin that actually locks the stock in place, lower left). I was going to drill a hole through the locking mechanism and install another locking pin in the lever, so it would require a tool to get it out....Upon inspection, it would be impossible to collapse without. I also thought about using a drill and a rivet gun to accomplish the same thing, then when/if I moved to free state, I could just drill out the rivet...

It looks like it should have an A2 length buffer and spring in it as the tube is not cut. That would make sense if they were trying to save money when building them. Just looks weird...

 

[vellnueve]

It's because these stocks are designed from the ground up to be pinned in place, rather than taking a true collapsible and pinning it. Less work, more sturdy.

 

[mac1911]

Im not sure of the truth on this one, but I do believe there is a minimum length or total length of "assult" guns post 1994?
I do also believe there is no collapasble stocks on post 1994 or maybe post 1998 semi auto rifles in mass period. I believe this is above and beyound the federal evil features. I am hard pressed to think of the source of this at this time. My stag is pinned in much the same way.