LTC renewal grace period meaningless?

[Godrick]

I just went through the renewal process. It was done prior to the expiration of my existing LTC. On the way out the person handling the renewals warned me that the grace period only allows me to have my firearms in my home. That is, I may not carry or take my firearms out of my home (no hunting, target shoooting, etc.) until I recieve my new LTC (two months or more). For all practical purposes (she said) I no longer have a LTC. What's up with this? Anyone else heard of this? If so, can anyone direct me to the law/statute or wherever this is specified? I can't believe that our ninety day grace period is, for all practical purposes, meaningless.
Cheers

 

[RKG]

The person who gave that advice was ill-informed.

The actual text of the statute is as follows:

"A license to carry or possess firearms shall be valid, unless revoked or suspended, for a period of not more than 6 years from the date of issue and shall expire on the anniversary of the licensee’s date of birth occurring not less than 5 years but not more than 6 years from the date of issue, except that if the licensee applied for renewal before the license expired, the license shall remain valid for a period of 90 days beyond the stated expiration date on the license, unless the application for renewal is denied."

The plain text says that, assuming the timely renewal and absence of a denial, "the license shall remain valid."

Now, to be sure, there may be practical problems if, pending renewal, you are obliged to show your LTC and it bears a past expiration date. In the words of Ricky Ricardo, there may be some "splainin' to do." But once the dust has settled, the underlying license remains in effect.

 

[Mikey]

Just to add to what RKG said it is a good idea to carry around the receipt the PD gave you proving you renewed before the expiration of you current LTC. When my PD renewed mine he printed out the receipt and said to keep it with my LTC "just in case".

 

[Len-2A Training]

Not to dispute RKG, but I asked this exact question of Jim Wallace (GOAL Exec Dir/Lobbyist) ~1 week ago and I think (not 100% positive) that I had also asked Chief Ron Glidden about this some time ago.

The answer from Jim Wallace (and IIRC from Chief Glidden) was that you can ONLY possess in your home, can't move the gun anywhere or shoot/load it (unless under the custody of someone with an unexpired LTC) until you get your renewed LTC.

Reason that I asked was that I expected my Wife's permit to expire before she gets a new one and I usually get her setup on the range and then will walk away a few times while she's shooting (I'm the RO on duty at that same time).

Our town (and most) don't give out receipts anyway which is another requirement to prove your status if you were ever questioned. So the whole law is actually moot for most of us.

 

[billmelater]

Len, or RKG, my LTC expires in about 5 minutes. The renewal is in the works, but I probably won't see it for a few more weeks.
I didn't think to ask about this at my interview, since I had read about the 90 day "grace period".
What little shooting time I get is alone at PF&G or a friend's property in Londonderry.
So, it looks like I'm shut off? Or not? Definitely maybe?

 

[Len-2A Training]

IANAL, I can only tell you what I've been told.

I asked because my Wife's about to be in that boat shortly, unless they really do get her her LTC within the next few weeks.

Since 1998, I've started my process 3-4 months early to ensure that I get it in time. My Wife's renewals have consistently taken 3 months here. My last one took ~6 weeks.

 

[billmelater]

Thanks. I guess I started late.
I didn't realize it would take the 4 weeks it did just to make an appointment to get an interview for the renewal. Then I was told 8 weeks until approval , "barring any problems."
When I read the statute, I foolishly thought it meant what it said.

 

[RKG]

Not to dispute RKG, but I asked this exact question of Jim Wallace (GOAL Exec Dir/Lobbyist) ~1 week ago and I think (not 100% positive) that I had also asked Chief Ron Glidden about this some time ago.

The answer from Jim Wallace (and IIRC from Chief Glidden) was that you can ONLY possess in your home, can't move the gun anywhere or shoot/load it (unless under the custody of someone with an unexpired LTC) until you get your renewed LTC.

Reason that I asked was that I expected my Wife's permit to expire before she gets a new one and I usually get her setup on the range and then will walk away a few times while she's shooting (I'm the RO on duty at that same time).

Our town (and most) don't give out receipts anyway which is another requirement to prove your status if you were ever questioned. So the whole law is actually moot for most of us.

You can take a question such as that posted by the original poster and break it down into three questions:

1. What does the law actually say?

2. What does some commenter believe the law means?

3. How is it actually enforced?

I can only answer Question No. 1, the answer to which (as provided by the actual terms of the statute itself) is not very much in doubt.

I don't know Mr. Wallace or Mr. Glidden, and, more importantly, I have no idea what analysis they used to reach the conclusions attributed to them. However, as a matter of law, the conclusions attributed to them are in plain conflict with the law and, therefore, appear to be quite incorrect.

Now I tend to be a pretty conservative fellow. I don't believe in getting right up to the line (believing that the only person who should be concerned about the precise location of a cliff is a surveyor). However, were I in the position have having a renewal application pending after the nominal expiration of my license, I would have no hesitation in continuing to exercise all the privileges of my license for the grace period.

 

[Godrick]

Location of law

RKG,
Can you or anyone else point me to the law so that I can print out the quote you posted? I agree, the law should mean what it says.
Thanks

 

[KMaurer]

MGL Chapter 140 §131(i)

Ken

 

[RKG]

Mea culpa for not having provided the citation.

 

[Len-2A Training]

RKG,

I know both parties . . . Jim fairly well and Ron very well.

I don't know where Jim gets his direct legal info, so I can't speak to that.

I do know that Ron Glidden gets his legal interpretations from the staff attys at EOPS and when in doubt he speaks to the sponsoring legislator's staff attys for clarification.

Biggest problem is confirmed by Jim and that is that there is NO law requiring that a PD issue a receipt. In 31 years of having a LTC here I've only received one "receipt" for my application and that was because I forced the issue with the prior chief (who I didn't trust). He even called me a "PITA" to my face on that one, to which I smiled. I could afford to have brass balls with him as he needed me more than I needed him (every time he asked me to do a detail, work as a Special PO I never refused him, unlike others) . . . I told him "no receipt and I won't work until I have the new permit in hand" . . . he sputtered that I could carry on the badge and I told him "yes, I know that but I won't" (just to be a ball-buster).

Never before that or since (he retired before my next renewal) have either my Wife or I obtained a receipt and we have asked each time. This time I got a "I know that you applied in time" from the Dept Secretary (with whom I am friendly) . . . but as I tried to tell her, she works M-F, 0700 - 1500 and "off hours" nobody knows who has applied or not.

 

[Scrivener]

One could ask for a copy of the MIRCS application - which the PD ought to provide anyway, but usually does not; just as the applicant ought to ask anyway, but usually does not.

A cancelled check is also useful.

 

[Len-2A Training]

You are right. I didn't think to ask my Wife until after we left the PD. While she was being processed, I was wandering around the Lt's office admiring the pictures of the "old days", etc. He wasn't asking a lot of questions, so I had no need to pay attention to what he was doing. <g>

I had asked the Secretary for a receipt and she said (essentially) that "we don't issue them".

 

[RKG]

RKG,

I know both parties . . . Jim fairly well and Ron very well.

I don't know where Jim gets his direct legal info, so I can't speak to that.

I do know that Ron Glidden gets his legal interpretations from the staff attys at EOPS and when in doubt he speaks to the sponsoring legislator's staff attys for clarification.

Biggest problem is confirmed by Jim and that is that there is NO law requiring that a PD issue a receipt. In 31 years of having a LTC here I've only received one "receipt" for my application and that was because I forced the issue with the prior chief (who I didn't trust). He even called me a "PITA" to my face on that one, to which I smiled. I could afford to have brass balls with him as he needed me more than I needed him (every time he asked me to do a detail, work as a Special PO I never refused him, unlike others) . . . I told him "no receipt and I won't work until I have the new permit in hand" . . . he sputtered that I could carry on the badge and I told him "yes, I know that but I won't" (just to be a ball-buster).

Never before that or since (he retired before my next renewal) have either my Wife or I obtained a receipt and we have asked each time. This time I got a "I know that you applied in time" from the Dept Secretary (with whom I am friendly) . . . but as I tried to tell her, she works M-F, 0700 - 1500 and "off hours" nobody knows who has applied or not.

I see here a distinction between the legal issue (i.e., "Do you have full LTC privileges during the post-expiration grace period? (Answer: Yes)) and the practical issue (i.e., "Are you likely to be in for some grief when a PO sees and expired LTC and you cannot prove out on the street that the grace period is effective?" (Answer: also Yes.))

I don't disagree that there may be pragmatic issues. But the proof test is this: if one were charged with 269/10(a) during the grace period, would the fact that a renewal application were pending at the time of the alleged offense provide a complete defense; answer (once again): Yes.

These guys may be giving sound practical advise, and they may have been misinterpreted as giving legal advice contrary to the plain meaning of the statute.

 

[Godrick]

Thanks

Thanks for the thoughtful responses.
Cheers

 

[tuna]

My birthday (and therefore expiration date) is in the middle of October, or more accurately, within 2 days either way of the opening of pheasant season.

I show up to apply for my renewal as early as the law allows (and it usually results in whoever I'm talking to checking the calendar to see if I'm too early) to make sure that I don't run into this problem come hunting season.

Even though I have 3 months to get my license in, I ask every time about the grace period, and every time I've been told that as long as the application is in, I can carry, hunt and buy ammunition, but I cannot buy a new firearm.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Two things to add here:

- My Wife's LTC-A/None renewal arrived today, 16 days after her interview and 10 weeks/2 days after I dropped off her paperwork. I'm not complaining!

- Spoke with a prominent gun dealer (not Carl) who tells me that he's been told by EOPS that he's even allowed to sell you a gun after LTC expiration if you have a RECEIPT for your renewal application showing that this was done prior to expiration. I've been told that you can ask the PD to give you a copy of the MIRCS application and that should suffice.

Just passing on information (or hearsay as one NES attorney likes to call it), as provided to me. I can't vouch for accuracy of the grace period issue as I've never even seen a MIRCS application form and now have heard different things from different people.

 

[Mikey]

Two things to add here:

- Spoke with a prominent gun dealer (not Carl) who tells me that he's been told by EOPS that he's even allowed to sell you a gun after LTC expiration if you have a RECEIPT for your renewal application showing that this was done prior to expiration. I've been told that you can ask the PD to give you a copy of the MIRCS application and that should suffice.

Len, This is what I was told by the LEO who did my renewal when he gave me the MIRCS "receipt". He said to keep it with me just in case I needed to buy "anything" (guns and ammo).