LTC/Class-A needed for out of state police who live in MA?

[Len-2A Training]

rscalzo, with due respect my sources are deep (and deeply involved) in MCOPA. They did vote to NOT support HR218. Their attorney parrots their positions well. NOTE well the implied "out" whereby MCOPA Counsel alludes to the fact that nothing requires a chief to issue a "retired ID" (or any ID to active LEOs either for that matter).

But all that said, the officer in the street is unlikely to jam up a Brother/Sister just because his/her chief has a hard-on for anyone carrying a gun on the chief's turf!

But as Scriv and myself has stated, "visitations" (HR218) and living here are two distinctly different animals.

Lots of changes need to be made to HR218's current law (sorry, I never memorized the PL number), but HR218 itself took ~15 years to pass. Any changes are likely to take another 10-15 years . . . and the end result may or may not improve the situation.

 

[Mach]

Regardless of HR218 or the MGL LE exemption, NOBODY can purchase ammo or guns without a LTC!!

Ask Wal-Mart in N. Attleboro what happened when a uniformed female State Trooper was allowed to buy ammo just because she was in uniform (not asked for LTC). I suspect it was a "sting" but they lost their MA Dealers Licenses for 3 years and have raw knees from groveling to finally get it back!

LenS,

Are you saying a Fed LEO can't buy ammo in MA on his creds? He needs a LTC to purchase ammo?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mach, YES that is true. NOBODY can buy legally w/o LTC. Your AGENCY can purchase from anywhere and have it shipped to their office, but no private purchases without MA LTC.

Them's the laws in MA.

Some places may sell to you on creds, but if they do they are violating state law and can be prosecuted and persecuted (MA licenses pulled for however long the chief wants to punish them).

 

[Mach]

LenS,

Thanks.

 

[Jaxon]

Hi,
As a retired LEO from Ohio, I possess the certifications/qualifications for the LEOSA04, HR218.

As a resident of MA, I am required to have an LTC to purchase ammo/firearms, which I have.

Its pretty simple. Get a LTC if you're going to live in MA.

 

[rscalzo]

Does the state have a simple Firearm's ID card? What would one do if they didn't have any desire to carry a firearm? Are they required to still go through the process. Sounds really screwed up.

I never doubted the need for some sort of documents from MA. I just don't see the need for a carry permit simply to buy ammo/firearms but maybe the state really is that screwed up...

And you are right Len. No one is going to make an issue between departments. For years prior to HR218, we carried freely between New York City and New Jersey as did NYPD. No one cared in the least.

 

[dwarven1]

Does the state have a simple Firearm's ID card? What would one do if they didn't have any desire to carry a firearm? Are they required to still go through the process. Sounds really screwed up.

Yes. Get an FID for non-large capacity rifles & shotguns or a Class B LTC for large cap rifles/shotguns. Yes. It is.

I just don't see the need for a carry permit simply to buy ammo/firearms but maybe the state really is that screwed up...

It is. Honestly.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Essentially the requirements are almost identical to get a LTC-A as an FID (some will nitpick of course, but cost is same $100/6 years, both require a course of some sort, answers to almost identical questions, etc.).

Why get a crippled permit that won't allow legal possession (or buying ammo) for a handgun at the same cost/aggravation factor.

Kinda like being offered a hot dog or fillet minion and both cost the same amount of money! Which do you pick?

Most MA LTC holders do not ever "carry". They should call it a "Mother May I Permission Slip to Possess" instead of LTC!

 

[glennv]

Essentially the requirements are almost identical to get a LTC-A as an FID (some will nitpick of course, but cost is same $100/6 years, both require a course of some sort, answers to almost identical questions, etc.).

Why get a crippled permit that won't allow legal possession (or buying ammo) for a handgun at the same cost/aggravation factor.

Kinda like being offered a hot dog or fillet minion and both cost the same amount of money! Which do you pick?

Most MA LTC holders do not ever "carry". They should call it a "Mother May I Permission Slip to Possess" instead of LTC!

It's better than paying $100 for a non res permit that's only good for a year. (I 'll have to dig but there is case law that deemed this unconstitutional.) Someone will eventually fight this.

 

[Hawgleg44]

rscalzo, with due respect my sources are deep (and deeply involved) in MCOPA. They did vote to NOT support HR218. Their attorney parrots their positions well. NOTE well the implied "out" whereby MCOPA Counsel alludes to the fact that nothing requires a chief to issue a "retired ID" (or any ID to active LEOs either for that matter).

With the rules that went into effect about four years ago, how is an officer in MA supposed to enter a courthouse on duty, carrying his sidearm, without a valid police ID? We got a notice from the courts saying that any LEO entering the courthouse on official busines while carrying his sidearm must produce two forms of ID, a badge and a valid police ID.

I've never heard of a police chief who didn't issue ID's to their officers.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Hawg, I don't want to go there!!

Many courts around my area disarm all who enter. LEOs are allowed to lock them up, others are turned away.

I've yet to be asked for ID, other than my badge but I have an ID in the case as well. In some courts I've then just walked thru, in others I've had to disarm and leave the gun and knife in a gun locker at the security checkpoint.

Those rules are made by the chief justice of each and every courthouse, so we have "hundreds of rules" in MA! Sounds just like the LTC issuance doesn't it?

 

[rscalzo]

The refusal to issue ID cards was geared more towards the retired guys. Current LE officers all have them, at least as far as I've heard. I never had a problem getting an ID card from my department. With my ID is a copy of my latest qualification from both NJ and NH.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Some of our active guys have had troubles with IDs, since the PD doesn't own any ID equipment and the town has been too cheap to buy it. I hope to have a resolution to this shortly, by donation (I'm hoping).

Retirees have been spotty, I know some who got NOTHING from our chief.

 

[rscalzo]

All we used was our polaroid ID camera. The id cards were made up in bulk by our printer. We looked into the high tech digital id card equipment but the town didn't want to go for the money. As the town has over 500 employees, it would have been worth it instead of having several different types of cards for each department.

The only up side was that I was able to get my passport photos done using their equipment.

 

[JonJ]

MGL Chp 41:

§ 98D. Identification Card to Be Carried on Police Officer's Person and Exhibited on Request.
Text
Each city or town shall issue to every full time police officer employed by it an identification card bearing his photograph and the municipal seal. Such card shall be carried on the officer's person, and shall be exhibited upon lawful request for purposes of identification.

 

[Hawgleg44]

MGL Chp 41:
Each city or town shall issue to every full time police officer employed by it an identification card bearing his photograph and the municipal seal. Such card shall be carried on the officer's person, and shall be exhibited upon lawful request for purposes of identification.

That law takes care of larger departments, but not out here in the sticks. Over 90% of the LEO's on smaller departments are part time officers. But, even though this law doesn't effect them, I still have never heard of one without an ID.

Here in Franklin County, the Sheriff's Office (Franklin County HOC) does the ID's for all of the smaller departments who don't have their own ID equipment. We used to have this generic looking photocopy/polaroid card, but not anymore.

 

[Len-2A Training]

We had a typed up card with a stick on picture and thumbprint IIRC.

On a one-shot basis, they had a bunch of officers go to a neighboring PD to get "real IDs" using a digital ID system. Anyone who didn't make it or wasn't around was out of luck.

Since our chief puts expiration dates on the IDs, when it came time to "renew" them, officers were out of luck or if they bitched mightily, they got the old typed up style.

My source of info was a Selectman I'm friendly with (and have been discussing my lack of current ID with for 3 years) and a very well respected (at least by me) Sgt. who's been on the department for probably 20 years . . . he was on active duty in the sandbox when they got the digital IDs (one-shot deal), so he was SOL upon his return and his ID was expiring. He forced the issue and got an old typed up one.

Shortly I'll be paying a visit to that neighboring department to get a better understanding of what works and what doesn't wrt the digital ID system and merge that info with what I picked up at the IACP Expo before I go "begging for bucks" to get the equipment donated.

 

[Jaxon]

Hell's bells... I knew the state was fracked up over alot of stuff.. but Police IDs? Geez, no wonder retired cops will have a cold day in hell getting an ID for the LEOSA04.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I spent an hour+ with an old friend who has been running the FT PO academy program at one site for >20 years. She had never heard of HR218 at all! And they run the in-service firearms qualification for 30+ towns! She confirmed that MCOPA's Training and Education Committee write all the training curriculum . . . hence no efforts to do HR218 training for retirees or anyone who doesn't do the In-Service Academy.

One good piece of news that I'll pass on to another old friend (retired LEO/firearms instructor) is that officers do NOT automatically lose their firearms instructor credentials upon retirement . . . as long as their former department will sponsor them as an instructor to MPTC! The retired officer I refer to had told me that all officers automatically lose their instructor creds immediately upon retirement, and he wanted to continue training and certifying officers . . . so now I get to tell him some good news.

 

[rscalzo]

Ask a lot of LE out there and they never heard of it.

NJ had a program in place years prior to the bill. Our state PBA worked out a deal with a former gov. for a Retired Officer Carry bill. Not going into details, we have to maintain the same qualifications as current officers using a state manidated course of fire twice a year. The permits are renewed every years.

Now with HR218 in place, we have a program in place to satisfy the requirements. I don't lose my PTC certification as a FI instructor and I'm certified to qualify under the NJ law. I'm back in NJ enough that I can get in the two quals easily.

As far as ID's, I've never seen a department that didn't issue them. I would be VERY suspect of someone displaying a badge with my ID included. I just wish my department didn't put expiration dates on my retired ID. Kind on makes me think the grim reaper is just around the corner..Or maybe they think I'm coming back to work...

By the way, NH does have a procedure in place for HR218.

 

[Captain Crunch]

MGL Chapter 140: Section 129C. Application of Sec. 129B; ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition; transfers; report to executive director; exemptions; exhibiting license to carry, etc. on demand



Section 129C. No person, other than a licensed dealer or one who has been issued a license to carry a pistol or revolver or an exempt person as hereinafter described, shall own or possess any firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition unless he has been issued a firearm identification card by the licensing authority pursuant to the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine B.



The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following exempted persons and uses:



(o) Persons in the military or other service of any state or of the United States, and police officers and other peace officers of any jurisdiction, in the performance of their official duty or when duly authorized to possess them;



Any person, exempted by clauses (o), (p) and (q), purchasing a rifle or shotgun or ammunition therefor shall submit to the seller such full and clear proof of identification, including shield number, serial number, military or governmental order or authorization, military or other official identification, other state firearms license, or proof of nonresidence, as may be applicable.

Chapter 140: Section 131G. Carrying of firearms by non-residents; conditions



Section 131G. Any person who is not a resident of the commonwealth may carry a pistol or revolver in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of taking part in a pistol or revolver competition or attending any meeting or exhibition of any organized group of firearm collectors or for the purpose of hunting; provided, that such person is a resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district or territory thereof which has licensing requirements which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs; provided, further, that in the case of a person traveling in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of hunting, he has on his person a hunting or sporting license issued by the commonwealth or by the state of his destination. Police officers and other peace officers of any state, territory or jurisdiction within the United States duly authorized to possess firearms by the laws thereof shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have a permit or license to carry firearms as described in this section.