LTC/Class-A needed for out of state police who live in MA?

[glennv]

I have a buddy who is moving to MA but is a cop in RI. He is convinced that he doesn't need a LTC/class-A even though he owns several guns. (SKS, glocks, HKs). He is incorrect right? Does he need to take a safety course to get his permit?

 

[Scrivener]

I have a buddy who is moving to MA but is a cop in RI. He is convinced that he doesn't need a LTC/class-A even though he owns several guns. (SKS, glocks, HKs). He is incorrect right? Does he need to take a safety course to get his permit?

Convinced by WHAT? The mere fact he's a cop in ANOTHER state?

His post-ban, "large capacity" mags are illegal, too.

 

[glennv]

Convinced by WHAT? The mere fact he's a cop in ANOTHER state?

His post-ban, "large capacity" mags are illegal, too.

My exact thoughts. I knew this was the case but I needed to here it from someone else.

I don't think he has any post-ban hi-caps other than his department issued mags. Are these legal?

I told him I'd help pick out sheets for his jail cell.

 

[rscalzo]

He does NOT need a LTC as an out of state police officer. All current and retired police are covered under the Federal HR218 legislation. All he will require is his vaid ID and badge from his department. However, as an out of state police officer he is subject to certain restrictions such as the wishes of a private property owner not to have firearms on the property, etc.

 

[glennv]

He does NOT need a LTC as an out of state police officer. All current and retired police are covered under the Federal HR218 legislation. All he will require is his vaid ID and badge from his department. However, as an out of state police officer he is subject to certain restrictions such as the wishes of a private property owner not to have firearms on the property, etc.

What about his personal weapons? They are not covered by HR218 right? He'll need the class-A or B?

 

[Scrivener]

He does NOT need a LTC as an out of state police officer. All current and retired police are covered under the Federal HR218 legislation. All he will require is his vaid ID and badge from his department. However, as an out of state police officer he is subject to certain restrictions such as the wishes of a private property owner not to have firearms on the property, etc.

Let's check the actual text:

`Sec. 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers

`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

`(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

`(c) As used in this section, the term `qualified law enforcement officer' means an employee of a governmental agency who--

`(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;

`(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;

`(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency;

`(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;

`(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and

`(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.

Note the utter absence of any provision for OWNING firearms. Note also that it expressly refers to carrying concealed. This is clearly not an exemption for the Massachusetts "Assault Weapons Ban."

Can he carry in Mass. as a RI cop, active or retired? Yes.

Can he OWN guns as a Mass. resident, including non-duty guns and "assault weapons" merely because he is/was a cop? Show us the language in the Federal statute expressly trumping local law.....

 

[glennv]

Let's check the actual text:



Note the utter absence of any provision for OWNING firearms. Note also that it expressly refers to carrying concealed. This is clearly not an exemption for the Massachusetts "Assault Weapons Ban."

Can he carry in Mass. as a RI cop, active or retired? Yes.

Can he OWN guns as a Mass. resident, including non-duty guns and "assault weapons" merely because he is/was a cop? Show us the language in the Federal statute expressly trumping local law.....

I make sure I let him know. I knew he had his head in the wrong place.

thanks

 

[rscalzo]

HR218 does not allow the ownership of any firearms banned by the assault weapon legislation. On and off duty firearms are permitted under the federal legislation but anyone in the state on a non-offical capacity would not be exempted from any hi=cap or hp ammo regulations..

For anyone interested, here is the link to the Federal legislation...
http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html

 

[Scrivener]

HR218 does not allow the ownership of any firearms banned by the assault weapon legislation. On and off duty firearms are permitted under the federal legislation but anyone in the state on a non-offical capacity would not be exempted from any hi=cap or hp ammo regulations..

Again, where does the Federal law authorize OWNERSHIP? The language clearly states the exemption is for concealed carry. It does not purport to be a wholesale substitution for/pre-emption of state licensing requirements.

 

[Len-2A Training]

There has also been a MGL on the books for >30 years that specifically exempts any visiting LEO from licensing requirements. This is long before HR218 was even dreamed of.

HOWEVER, <I hate to admit it but I think that > Scrivener is correct that "ownership IN MA" is NOT covered by MGL or HR218 and that he needs a LTC!

He should be smart and take the MA course (NO exemption for out of state LEOs), and get his MA LTC when he moves here.

 

[rscalzo]

You're losing me with the "ownership in MA." statement. As an out of state LE officer who has satisfied all the requirement of HR218, I'm not required to possess an MA LTC. What senario are you saying would require that licensing?

 

[Scrivener]

You're losing me with the "ownership in MA." statement. As an out of state LE officer who has satisfied all the requirement of HR218, I'm not required to possess an MA LTC. What senario are you saying would require that licensing?

The scenario expressly set forth in the original post:

I have a buddy who is moving to MA but is a cop in RI.

 

[rscalzo]

I'm not p on MA FA laws so this is a guess. In NJ, we were required to have a FID card but are exempt from the requirement of a carry permit. Anyone who works out of state and lives in the state need not have a carry permit if they are current or retired LE as per HR218 and satisfy all of the qualification requirements.

Where I see problems is with any firearms that are not duty related, such as post ban AW. But as I said, that is a opinion based only on my working with HR218.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Regardless of HR218 or the MGL LE exemption, NOBODY can purchase ammo or guns without a LTC!!

Ask Wal-Mart in N. Attleboro what happened when a uniformed female State Trooper was allowed to buy ammo just because she was in uniform (not asked for LTC). I suspect it was a "sting" but they lost their MA Dealers Licenses for 3 years and have raw knees from groveling to finally get it back!

 

[Scrivener]

I'm not p [?] on MA FA laws so this is a guess. In NJ, we were required to have a FID card but are exempt from the requirement of a carry permit.

Where I see problems is with any firearms that are not duty related, such as post ban AW. But as I said, that is a opinion based only on my working with HR218.

This isn't New Hampshire OR New Jersey and your unqualified guesses add nothing but confusion and misinformation.

Your claim of "working with HR218" is of dubious value, given that we have the actual text available.

 

[rscalzo]

Then I'll just stick with the information that my state LE agency has supplied me. HR218 covers me throughout the country. I have no need for Carry Permits in any state pending the completion of the requirements of the statute.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Carry permits for "visiting" are NOT the same as "possession and purchase permits" (like MA issues) for RESIDENTS. [In MA we don't call them that, but in essence that is what they are.]

 

[Scrivener]

Carry permits for "visiting" are NOT the same as "possession and purchase permits" (like MA issues) for RESIDENTS. [In MA we don't call them that, but in essence that is what they are.]

Don't try to confuse him with facts . - he's a LEO!

 

[rscalzo]

I understand that but the original question has gotten lost.

Don't try to confuse him with facts . - he's a LEO!

I get my information from the NJ State PBA Legal Division and NAPO. I think I'll trust their judgement to cover my butt.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I understand that but the original question has gotten lost.



I get my information from the NJ State PBA Legal Division and NAPO. I think I'll trust their judgment to cover my butt.

It covers your butt ONLY because you are NOT an inmate of PRM! Once you live here, you gotta play by MA rules.

That's the essential difference between YOU and the original question (FRIEND of glennv)! He plans on living here!

 

[Scrivener]

I understand that but the original question has gotten lost.

NO; the original question concerned someone MOVING to Massachusetts. YOU got lost and dragged this thread with you.

I get my information from the NJ State PBA Legal Division and NAPO. I think I'll trust their judgement [sic] to cover my butt.

Sources well known and respected for their extensive expertise in Massachusetts law.....

 

[rscalzo]

Sourse

I'm really not looking to get into a flame here but judging by the comment

Sources well known and respected for their extensive expertise in Massachusetts law.....

you don't have not idea what the organization represents. The president of NAPO which happens to be a country wide group has the as the president the head of the Boston PD union. Seems like they DO represent MA fairly well not to mention over 2000 police unions and over 238,000 LE officers throughout the country.

 

[Scrivener]

I'm really not looking to get into a flame here but judging by the comment you don't have not [sic] idea what the organization represents. The president of NAPO which happens to be a country wide group has the [sic] as the president the head [sic - which is it?] of the Boston PD union.

Res ipsa loquitur

 

[Kurtz]

Any LEO can carry concealed in MA, but once you move here you have to abide by the regulations. Which means he'll need to get a Class A to legally own them.

A question I have is if his magazines are duty related would they still be illegal to possess?

 

[Scrivener]

Any LEO can carry concealed in MA, but once you move here you have to abide by the regulations. Which means he'll need to get a Class A to legally own them.

A question I have is if his magazines are duty related would they still be illegal to possess?

As a DUTY gun is exempt, its mags would be also.

"Duty" being the operative term.

 

[greycar]

The MCOPA Counsel [ Atty. Collins] on LEOSA :

Federal Concealed Carry Law
A new Federal law authorizes active and retired
police officers to carry concealed firearms, regardless of state
laws to the contrary, with certain exceptions. Entitled, “The
Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004”, the law attempts
to use the “interstate commerce” provision of the
Constitution to justify the overriding of state laws. (A challenge
might be made that this is not a valid exercise of federal
power.)
Active “qualified law enforcement officers” who are
carrying required identification, may carry a concealed firearm
anywhere in the US, except where a state law allows
private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict such possession
on their property, or where a state law similarly restricts
or prohibits concealed carrying on a state or local
government property, installation, building, base or park.
The officer must have arrest powers, be authorized
by his/her agency to carry firearms, not be the subject of any
disciplinary action, meet current firearms qualifications, not
be under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and not be prohibited
by Federal law from receiving a firearm.
The photo ID issued by their governmental agency
is what is required under the new law. Not included are
machine guns, firearms silencers, or destructive devices.
Similar rules allow retired officers to carry concealed
weapons. They must have retired in good standing, not for
mental instability, have been regularly employed with arrest
powers for 15 years (unless a service-connected disability
cut their career short) and met their agency’s firearms test in
the past 12 months (or the state’s if none locally).
The law does not require local police departments
to issue photo ID’s, nor take any action to provide officers
traveling out of state with documentation of qualifications to
carry a concealed weapon. The department need not test
or be involved in testing of retired officers.
If officers come across an individual claiming to be
able to carry a concealed weapon under the Federal law,
the burden should be on the person to prove he or she is
exempt from a Massachusetts statute. If the officer has probable
cause to believe an offense has been committed, an
arrest or complaint is appreciated.
Courts and lawyers will be busy for years!

from mcopa news sep 2004.pdf

 

[Scrivener]

...may carry a concealed firearm anywhere in the US, except where a state law allows private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict such possession on their property, or where a state law similarly restricts or prohibits concealed carrying on a state or localgovernment property, installation, building, base or park.

Once again, for those who (choose to) miss it, the law only permits carrying a concealed firearm "on the badge." It in no way permits the purchase or possession of non-duty guns or ammo.

Its intended purpose is to allow cops to carry concealed while traveling. It does not supercede state licensing laws - to the extent it is even legal, as opposed to yet another abuse of the Commerce Clause.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Thanks Greycar!

As one can see . . . MA is a "gun friendly state" where they will do whatever they can to even keep fellow LEOs from carrying firearms anywhere!

Sorry, I wouldn't believe any PBA anywhere over the info that I'm aware of (from inside circles in MA, MCOPA).

 

[rscalzo]

From what I can see, the MCOPA hasn't taken a stand on it. In my experience with the MA LE circles, they have no problem with the legislation. Nor does NJ, NY, NH or PA in my experience.

The wonderful politicians of MA (read the great Kennedy klan) tried their best to block the legislation but failed on every attempt. Many states have taken steps to provide the qualification process, even NJ got a program in place. As for the last line (an arrest is appreciated, that has been avoided, even in gun unfriendly NYC due to the potention for a civil suit.To date, I haven't heard of one case involving a HR218 case when the holder was carrying in line with the regulations.

As an aside, the fifteen year rule is pending down to ten years.

 

[Scrivener]

From what I can see, the MCOPA hasn't taken a stand on it. In my experience with the MA LE circles, they have no problem with the legislation. Nor does NJ, NY, NH or PA in my experience.

If it's enacted, it is not "legislation;" if it's still pending legislation, it's not a law.

Not that it matters one whit whether MCOPA or any other group has "taken a stand on it" for the purpose of answering the OP's question. The bottom line is that a law permitting out-of-state LEOs to carry concealed has NO effect on state laws requiring residents to have licenses to own guns.

Grasp the concept.