Long Range Shooting

[bpm990d]

I'm a dink when it comes to just going up to someone out of the blue like that. So I would rather have someone that I can either go with, or meet, or just spend a few hours with someone to see if I would even like it...

Dude,

I can't resist asking this obvious question; Did you go to the prom with your sister?

I'm sure that someone on the board is going to be shooting at the Reading or Nashua matches. Just post something about wanting to accompany them or sign up for a clinic.

I know it's hard; I came from a non gun owning family. Just put yourself out there.

Brian

 

[crak]

Yep. Just put yourself there with your rifle and some ammo. They'll know who the new guy is and they'll come to you.

 

[C-pher]

Dude,

I can't resist asking this obvious question; Did you go to the prom with your sister?

I'm sure that someone on the board is going to be shooting at the Reading or Nashua matches. Just post something about wanting to accompany them or sign up for a clinic.

I know it's hard; I came from a non gun owning family. Just put yourself out there.

Brian

Too funny. You know, that's wierd that you say that. Becuase I've been shooting all my life. And I come from a family that's owned guns for as far back as I can remember.

And, I have always never had a problem going up to a girl and start talking to them.

And, at my range, I don't have a problem talking to one of the guys.

But I feel weird going up to some dude at anothe club and ask to touch his weapon.

Really, it's weird. I don't know what my problem is... It was like that when I got into Cowboy Action Shooting. I went to a match, and didn't talk to one person. Then I found a few guys at my club, and I'll talk to just about anyone at the shoots. But now I know what I'm talking about...

I've just found that at most of these things, there are a lot of guys that just don't want to take the time...or they are busy, or just something. And I know that there are a lot that aren't like that. But my luck has always been the ones that I talk to are those. And they are almost always the hyper-competitive ones.

It's just turned me off from doing that anymore.

Good news is I'm an only child...so I don't have a sister.

 

[crak]

Start with the guy who takes your entry $5.

 

[Nickle]

C-Pher, if the HP shooters areanything like the BR shooters, they WILL seek you out to make friends. I smell another challenge. Where are you guys shooting in NH? Iron sighted Service Rifles OK, and moderately competitive?

Brian, the reason Savages and Winchester aren't used isn't weight. It's because they are very easy to true up to make accurate. Most gunsmiths that do BR work won't do builds on them.

Pre-64 Win Model 70's used to be popular in the 50's, but that ended in the mid 60's.

I started shooting BR in the mid to late 60's, like 67 or 68. I've seen only a couple of Winchesters since then, can only remember the lefty to my left shooting a Featherweight 264 Mag in Hunter Class at Millerton, NY. I was shooting a 222 or 223 (Rem 722) in Heavy Varmint Class. Every time he pulled the trigger, my cross hairs moved 6 inches or more.

That was about the time Dave Brennan went to his first BR match. He was the only guy that finished up worse than me. He's a good guy, and was then.

 

[TonyD]

A lot of Palma rifles have been built on a Win. Model 70.

Brian is correct that 400 - 700 is mid-range. However, service rifle does shoot long range matches at 600 and 1,000. C-pher, this is what you might want to look at - a match service rifle that you can shoot long and compete in service rifle competitions if you choose. If you really get the bug then build a Palma rifle. Charles Daly actions are around $400. (My long range rifle is built from O3A3, barreled with the current Douglass barrel around '66 and still drives tacks!) Remember, Palma is .308. As someone else stated the other long-range guys use the 6.5 / .284.

Also, C-pher, hook up with Derek at Reading during a service rifle match.


ETA: Anyway, I'm off to Benning for a Regional. Have a good weekend!

 

[Nickle]

C-Pher already has a decent Service Rifle. We've just got to get him out shooting it.

 

[bpm990d]

C-pher,

I’m not sure why there is so much practice on the weekdays. I guess there are a lot of people with time off and the range is obviously wanted. I do know that the 600yd practices were a lot less formal and there were a lot of people that just shot those. They had a lot of people show up with tactical rigs and shoot off of bipods and rests.

There is no problem with going up to even the hyper competitive shooters and introducing yourself to them and asking questions. The thing you have to remember is that you shouldn’t do it right before they are going up to shoot or right after.

Remember, some of them drove 100 miles and slept in their truck. They are getting ready to shoot and are going through the mental processes they need to get to where they need to be. They don’t want someone yapping in their ear. The same thing goes for right after they come off the line. They are all pissed off about that squeaker 9 that they lost out the bottom and they are trying to get their gear off of the line and are going through a mental evaluation of what they did while they were shooting. I’ve had friends that should know better do the same thing to me; I’ve told them to go buzz off

It is like anything in life, just wait for the appropriate time and ask good questions.

Brian

 

[PatMcD]

Pat, Does anyone shoot irons at the 3x600 in Hampden? or is it all scoped rifles? I don't think I can make this weekend, but hopefully at least one in the future. I am planning on shooting more of the service rifle matches this year.

CD

Chris, one or two guys shoot with scopes, but most (including myself) just shoot whatever rifle you use in Highpower. I've also been playing with a DPMS LR308. I'm going to try that for one of the 600yd Matches this weekend (weather permitting). Hope to see more of you this year! I'm kind of bummed that Scarboro is only having two HP Matches this year.

 

[PatMcD]

. So I would rather have someone that I can either go with, or meet, or just spend a few hours with someone to see if I would even like it...

I have a feeling that I would. But I would rather be sure...

THAT sentence right there is exactly why I recommended the Savage rifle! The 10FP would be an INEXPENSIVE, fairly accurate introduction to Long Range shooting. Short of borrowing a rifle to try it (which is probably the best route for somebody who wants to get their feet wet), why sink a pile of money into something you might not find all that interesting?

 

[PatMcD]

600 yard and 1000 yard aren't Long Range?

My mistake. I thought Benchrest was shot at 200yds only.

 

[bpm990d]

Nickle,

I do know that the BR smiths prefer M700s and customs to work on. I’m not a gunsmith so I don’t have any real experience with smithing Savage rifles for BR; my post about the weight proves that. I do know that there is a pretty significant difference between the disciplines. My post about picking the game and then deciding on equipment holds true. From a practical standpoint in High Power; there is no real difference in performance between the three big manufactures of actions. Ooops I meant to say two manufactures.

I wouldn’t go reinventing the wheel for benchrest by trying to get unproven action to shoot. I’d pick what everyone else was using.

If you want to get into Long Range High Power; a modern .30 cal varmint rifle off the shelf will most likely shoot adequately. The reason I say .30 is because the other calibers are more likely to not be offered in the correct twist for an appropriate long range bullet (a 175-190gr HPBT). A Winchester Stealth or M700 or Savage would fit the bill nicely for cheap money. Stay away from other calibers unless you confirm that it has an appropriate twist rate for the appropriate bullets. If the barrel is a dog after testing it, take it off and have a smith fit a new one.

An example of the differences between the disciplines can be seen in what type of barrels the two groups choose. Shilen is probably one of the biggest barrels chosen for BR rifles, but in all my years I have only seen one on an NRA high power rifle. Is one better or more accurate? I guess it depends on the application or the yardstick you measure with. Shooting 5 or 10 shots and cleaning is a lot different that shooting 58 or a 110 shots and cleaning. High Power shooters tend to like cut rifled barrels from Krieger and Obermeyer, while BR folks tend to use Shilens and Harts. Don’t misunderstand; there are lots that choose differently. If I was a BR shooter I’d be looking at Shilens & Harts.

The choice of a Savage for shooting NRA Long Range High Power wouldn’t be a bad choice. It wouldn’t be my first choice for a rifle set up to shoot over the course (that includes rapid fire), but it would do fine in a slow fire role used in Long Range.

Just for shits and giggles, I know a guy that has a very nice Palma rifle made on an Arisaka action. He has beat me several times. It’s not exactly state of the art and he did remove the action shroud. My gues is it is the only Arisaka on the planet with a Krieger.


Brian

 

[bpm990d]

PatMcD,

What ever happened to all the talk about a 500yd range at Scarborough? I know they cleared a pretty big area, but the last time I drove through; there was nothing.

Brian

 

[PatMcD]

CDKayak would be a better source of info.. I believe he is a member at Scarboro. I have heard through the Grapevine that 600yds is in the near future. I know there is a lot of in-fighting between the rifle guys vs. the Trap guys vs. the pistol guys vs. whoever else down there.

 

[bpm990d]

CDKayak would be a better source of info.. I believe he is a member at Scarboro. I have heard through the Grapevine that 600yds is in the near future. I know there is a lot of in-fighting between the rifle guys vs. the Trap guys vs. the pistol guys vs. whoever else down there.

That’s too funny! Just like every other club I have belonged to. We use to have huge personality clashes at one club. These people hated one another and I guessed that for a time they relished making each other miserable. The biggest problem wasn’t the trap shooters or the CRO. It was our own schmuck high power director. Gawd I don’t miss that guy.

There have been rumors since 96. That's when I moved here.

Brian

 

[Nickle]

My mistake. I thought Benchrest was shot at 200yds only.

Don't feel alone, a LOT of folks think the same way. Most of it is 100/200/300, but the Long Range guys started up in PA in the late 60's/early 70's. I see they're not shooting Long Range there any more, but it's moved to other venues.

Personally, I liked shooting at 100 and 200. A lot of challenge to shoot small groups and score shooting at small targets, and it all works towards long range shooting.

 

[Nickle]

Brian, there's lots of GOOD discussion going on here, and personally, I'm glad it is.

Used to be, the BR shooters used Hart, Shilen and later McMillan barrels. A long time ago, Douglas barrels were popular. Looking at range reports from a couple of local shoots (Dunham's Bay, NY and St Johnsbury, VT), I see Krieger and Lilja barrels mentioned a lot more than they were 15 years ago. I'm a Hart fan myself, but, that's almost as much due to knowing the original Hart's (Bob and Paul) as well as Bob's son, Wally, as it is because of the quality. A guy named Niemi used to make barrels for himself, then later for others. They made Hart barrels pale in comparison.

I also concur that 30 caliber is a good start point. It's real easy to make a 308 shoot well, and they're better in the wind than a 223. 300 Mag's leave some to be desired, and though they certainly can cause flinching. Someone mentioned 6.5x284. I politley disagree, and here's why. The only calibers that have good custom bullets available are 22, 6mm and 30. Mass produced bullets like Sierra, Hornady and a few others are OK, but, if you've ever used the custom bullets, man, what a difference. The mass produced bullets are capable of 1/4 to 3/8 MOA, but, the custom bullets can get you down under 1/8 MOA. BTDT, and it's nice to do.

Just for the record here, I do my own gunsmithing, including truing actions, fitting, chambering and turning barrels (I buy straight blanks), and my work is pretty decent, based on the results I've gotten in the past. I can say I know WHY the 'smiths prefer to work on the Remingtons, they're easy to do, and are pretty close to right to start with. Custom actions like the Hart and such don't need to be reworked, they're made right the first time. They do cost some serious $, though.

 

[cdkayak]

PatMcD,

What ever happened to all the talk about a 500yd range at Scarborough? I know they cleared a pretty big area, but the last time I drove through; there was nothing.

Brian

We're in the process of rearranging the club to change where the shot falls and extend the rifle range. If everything goes as planned there will be a 600yd range at Scarborough. They've already started clearing the land to move the combination 25/50/100 yd ranges which is the first step. Obviously it's a slow process due to money, time, permits and scheduled events. We'll be swapping the location of the trap fields and current 300 yd rifle range, so lots of earth needs to be moved.

Once I have some timelines I'll be posting them here.

CD

 

[bpm990d]

CD,

I'm not a member at Scarborough but anything like work parties or fund raisers for the range I'm more than willing to come down and pitch in. I'd love to see that place get a 600yd range.

Google Earth shows a fair amount that has already been cleared. I'm not sure if it's old or new. It sounds like a ton of work.

Brian

 

[PatMcD]

Someone mentioned 6.5x284. I politley disagree, and here's why. The only calibers that have good custom bullets available are 22, 6mm and 30. Mass produced bullets like Sierra, Hornady and a few others are OK, but, if you've ever used the custom bullets, man, what a difference. The mass produced bullets are capable of 1/4 to 3/8 MOA, but, the custom bullets can get you down under 1/8 MOA. BTDT, and it's nice to do.

I think that may change in the near future. 6mm and 6.5mm are coming on real strong in Highpower. I read of several new wildcat chamberings (6x, 6xc, 6cr, 6.5Grendel, 6.5xc, and so on) that the hard holders are trying out. I think Tubb shoots a 6xc and is experimenting with the 6.5xc. Once he puts his stamp of approval on something, there is a stampede to the gunsmith for new barrels. Custom bullets won't be far behind. The BC of 6 and 6.5 is hard to beat.

 

[Cross-X]

That M24 costs more than a few thousand. The Army is paying $5000+ for them.

Maybe so, but that is also what the Army pays for toilet seats!

 

[Nickle]

Pat, the driving force for quality 22, 6mm and 30 cal bullets wasnn't the HP shooters, it was the BR shooters. And, the BR shooters generally aren't looking at 6.5mm any time soon.

Darius, it was the Air Force that paid big $ for toilet seats. For the C5A Galaxy, IIRC. The Army could've done better buying the guns from McMillan or Hart, for sure.

 

[cdkayak]

All this has gotten me more interested. It looks like I'm going to have to start keeping my eyes open for a good deal on a nice .308 down the road.

CD

Brian,
Thanks for the offer. PM sent with additional info.

 

[bpm990d]

Nickle,

Highpower shooters have been stealing lots of their stuff from the bench shooters for quite a long time. The quality of projectiles is entirely a product of benchrest; as is all the crazy brass prep stuff that some people do and bullet sorting and weighing.

The 6.5s have been going pretty strong winning matches in High Power for about the last ten years. Berger; JLK; Norma; Lapua and others have been making decent bullets for shooting long range for a while. I have not shot any of them since I thought the Sierra 142gr bullets shot so well in both my 6.5/284 and the 6.5x51 LPR. The Sierras shot about a 4 inch 10 shot groups at 600yds out of the bolt gun. The nice thing about the 6.5 is that it has a lot less recoil than the magnums. They do go through barrels pretty quick.

I do know that the Sierras and Hornadys can’t really compete against the custom bullets in bench shooting at 100-300yds, but I thought that they had a fair number shooting Sierra 6.5s in the 1000 yd stuff down at Bodines. I could be wrong.

Brian

 

[Nickle]

The real Long Range BR stuff I'm not up on.

I know that regular BR has become an equipment game. Used to be you'd see about 5 or 6 different calibers in the Varmint classes, now they look at you like you're a Leper if you don't shoot a 6 PPC. I prefer 22's, especially the 219 Don Wasp.

I guess the proof custom 6.5's are being made is Berger.

The common 6.5's are all too much case capacity for extreme accuracy (at the shorter ranges). Optimum for a 6mm or 22 is about the 223/219 DW/PPC's with a 62 to 68 grain bullet in the 6, and 52/53 gr in the 22. Optimum for 30 cal is about 30-30/30 IHMSA case capacity, and 150 gr bullets. 6.5's will be between them. I think a 6.5 Grendel is about right.

Longer range is an exception to that, of course, since the bullets have to be heavier and longer to retain ballistic efficiency. Bigger cases are required to move those bullets to a decent velocity and achieve that efficiency. As I said before, I'm partial to 30 caliber andthe 308 in particular (though it's a little small for the job). 30-06 is a good choice, but, I imagine 30-284 or 7.62x54R would be better capacity cases. I think the Magnums are overkill, but, they get results with them.

Your 260 (6.5x51) should be a fair trade off of velocity and accuracy. I've used the Sierra 140 MK's in the distant past, but the gun I was using them in was horrible (Rem 700 BDL, 6.5 Rem Mag).

 

[bpm990d]

Nickle,

The nice thing about the .308 is that you can shoot long range with it and still be competitive with it in the Palma class. It’s a great caliber as far as accuracy and efficiency. It’s just not a good choice for shooting directly against magnums or .284s or 6.5/284. All else being equal the .308 shooter will be behind the eight ball as far as wind drift goes. However with that being said, there are plenty of shooters with .308 Palma rifles that whump on guys with better cartridges. I shot my .308 in Palma matches and shot the 6.5/284 in Any Rifle matches. The problem with a 30-06 or a 30/284 or 7.62x54R is that you are shooting against magnums. Basically the rules for NRA Long Range put those cartridges into the same category as the magnums; .284s and 6.5/284s. So if you choose to shoot them, you are accepting being at a ballistic disadvantage. The.308s can compete in their own category (Palma).

The 6.5x51 is a Swed shortened by 4mm. I use .243 cases to form them, but the next batch may be .260 Remingtons. It has a little less case capacity than the .260rem. I had it built before the .260 was standardized. I only use it for shooting 200, 300 & 600 XTC matches. It is very accurate and would probably shoot well at 1000yds, but the AR10 is just not in the same league as far as accuracy as the boltgun and the ballistics are way behind the 6.5/284.

It must be nice to have lathe and be able to do your own smithing. I really want to lean how to use one so I can do my own barrels. A couple of months ago I went up to the community college and looked at the program. I’m probably going to do something different, but I’ve wanted one for about the last ten or so years. So what is the pain with truing up the savage actions? I know that the collar is kind of weird, but a lot of smiths thread the action so you don’t need the collar.

Silly question, but why do you prefer the .219 DW over the 6PPC for benchrest?

Brian

 

[Nickle]

The question isn't silly.

First, I never did like the 6mm for Bench Rest. Especially the PPC. Cookbook cartridge, everybody uses the same exact load (H322), until they don't work in the cold.

Secondly, I knew Harvey Donaldson, did him a big favor at a shoot when I was pretty young, and made a good friend.

Lastly, and most important, I'm an Experimenter. There isn't many of them left any more, I gave up BR over the years. I had another good friend, Selley Masker (the gunsmith) that was also an Experimenter. He shot a 6 SM Wasp (225 Win case). I was thinking of building a 6mm Hunter Class gun, before I quit being active. 6mm Carcano. Yup, exactly that. Good brass (Norma) is readily available, and it's the right case capacity.