Long Range Shooting

Nickle

Nickle

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Here's a thread for the discussion going on.

To bring it up to speed, C-Pher has expressed interest in a high dollar precision gun. Several of us have commented on the value of said gun for long range work.
 
Now, you really don't need sub-MOA at 100 yards, believe it or not, UNLESS you're shooting competition.

The average human torso is 20" wide. That's 4 MOA at 500 yards and 2 MOA at 1000 yards. It's also far more narrow than almost any game animal. So, if you wanted to shoot torso targets or pop-ups at long distance, you'll really need 2 MOA.

My choices would be a Rem 700 PSS, or older Varmint Special, both in 308, or a custom built bolt gun in 308. Yes, the magnums have flatter trajectories, but, truth be known, they punish the shooter when shot prone or bench rest for any amount.

Alternate choices would be a Match grade M1A/M14 or a Match grade AR. They won't be as accurate as the bolt gun, and may not make 2 MOA, but, they'll get the job done, out to 800+ yards, in the hands of a decent shooter.

A Russian SVD would be next, followed by a RomAK 3. They'll work out past 600 yards, but a Russian SVD is big $ (though a Tiger is about $2K) and the RomAK 3 will need really good ammo. The biggest limitations here are the scope and the ammo.

I've intentionally left out certain military sniper rifles from other countries, since they are big $ and not any better than what has been already mentioned. An HK will get really pricey.
 
My quote from the other thread:

C-pher, unless you are independently wealthy I'd suggest saving your money. First off, what type long-range shooting are you looking at, bench rest, Palma, F-class, etc? They all use a different type rifle shooting completely different positions and rules.

Getting less than 1 MOA at a 1,000 yards requires a lot more than just a squared away rifle. It requires some seriously precision hand loads, premium sights (metalic / glass - depending on the discipline) misc. other equipment and ton of practice and experience.

If you're just looking to have a very accurate rifle out of the box that you might get a chance to shoot at a thousand every now and then, I'd suggest the Rem. 700 PSS in .308. Very vesatile and though the .308 is not the best it is certainly able to hold 1 MOA out to 1,000.
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i havent read all the posts on and just gonna post my opinion...but when it comes to long range shooting...the optics are just as important as the rifle...if you buy a $2,000 rifle and spend $150 on the scope then what good is that??

c-pher...with the proper scope, ammunition, and practice, you can turn any gun into a long range gun that you can hit x - ring all day at 1, 2, ,3 and 400 yards...savage rifles are claimed to be "the most accurate out of the box"...one of their "sniper" rifle variants in that heavy, but nicely bedded sniper/varminter stock with a bull barrel cost around $800...throw a nice leupold scope on there for say another $500 and some math grade ammo and your good to go...also the savages have the adjustable triggers...i have one on my hunting rifle and i love it...but here is a trick i learned from a friend who is a marine sniper...its a pain in the ass...but it works

in order to achieve "perfect zero" and real moa accuracy you have to clean your rifle after every shot...yes every single %*#@ing shot...it tkaes forever...but if you want a really accurate long range rifle...its the only way to do it...i was sighting in my scope for hunting season and adjusting windage and elevation after each shot and my friend told me the gun would never be as accurate as it could be...he said it would have a different point of impact depending on whether the barrel was hot, warm or cold...its a lengthy process...and you could go through a whole bag of patches before you achieve a tight grouping...but well worth it
 
blood hound said:
in order to achieve "perfect zero" and real moa accuracy you have to clean your rifle after every shot...yes every single %*#@ing shot...it tkaes forever...but if you want a really accurate long range rifle...its the only way to do it...i was sighting in my scope for hunting season and adjusting windage and elevation after each shot and my friend told me the gun would never be as accurate as it could be...he said it would have a different point of impact depending on whether the barrel was hot, warm or cold...its a lengthy process...and you could go through a whole bag of patches before you achieve a tight grouping...but well worth it
Click to expand...

Not really true. If it is, don't tell the Bench Rest Shooters about it. They definitely aren't aware of it, and 1/4 MOA groups in the Varmint classes will put you close to last place at a match.

Your friend gave you bad info.
 
I agree about the scope. If you want accuracy you need top notch optics. Its not uncommon for a good long range scope to cost twice as much as the rifle. Your average $150-$200 scope may give you a few good shots, but it won't last and it won't be consistent.
A Savage bolt action like the LE series coupled up with a good scope, or even a Super Sniper from SWFA will be plenty for the distances we can shoot around here and won't put you in the poor house. Thats my intention for a set up when I get a few other buys out of the way.
 
Tony, I just brought up that rifle because it already comes with optics and the like. And I'm just going on what I saw on TV.

Like I previously said. I would like to learn long range shooting. As for what, I don't know. I don't really know that much about it as I've never been exposed except for on TV.

Nickle, I was watching a show on long distance shooting. And how the Army team was having custom made rifles made just for their body. Anyway, they were shooting 1000 yards and they were also using 300 win mag. But like I said, as I don't know that much about it, I'm only going on what I read and see.

I agree, 3500 for a gun is a lot of money. But then, really how many guns go for Suggested Retail? But still, if it's 2700, is that far of for a long range gun? If you're already figuring in a high quality optic included?

OH, and Nickle, when I was watching the guy shoot 4" groups at 1000 yards with this rifle on Sighting IN, he was cleaning it after every shot. Don't know if it's good or not, bur he was sending one wet patch, and two dry patches after each shot. The army guys weren't cleaning after each patch and they were hitting the X each time as well. So, I don't know.


Back to the type. As I don't know what each shooting class is Tony. I would like to learn one that's prone, or maybe bench...or both.

And as I said, I never thought that long distance was easy. I made that comment on the other thread. Someone else said that it wouldn't be that hard. I seem to thing differently. If it wasn't, I would think that everyone would be doing it... I still would like to work with someone and learn.

And, like I said...being here I have no idea where I would be able to do it?
 
Again, build the rifle for the intended purpose. Two of the three long range competitions (excluding BR) requires iron sights, not glass. Only the F-class utilizes the any / any format but still has restrictions.

Bench rest is not necessarily long range since many are shot at only 100 yards.

Blood hound, your friend's advice has some merit but not as it relates to long range (or any competition) that is shot under time constraints. Your friend is referring to the cold-bore shot that is very important for snipers to know and, the shift in POI for the follow up shot. There is actually much less deviation with the quality of sniper rifles these days. The part he left out is for his theory to work, the barrel must be allowed to cool to its pre-shot tempature before firing the next round. Since this is typically around 20 minutes you would only get off one shot during a 15 or 20 round match. Maybe our resident 8541 can opine further on current USMC STA platoon thinking.
 
The guy cleaning every shot was likely breaking in the barrel. I do the same thing for the first 50 rounds on a new barrel.

A custom gun should cost you $2000 or less, depending on exactly what you want. Add $500 to $750 for a top quality scope.

I've gotten along fine at 300 yards (Bench Rest) with an older Steel tubed Weaver T25 scope on a gun I rebuilt myself. And I was getting decent accuracy. I've got a BSA (6x24 MILDot) I'm trying out, and time will tell how it is.

I'm the one that said long distance isn't all that hard. Except for learning to dope wind and mirage. What I mean is if you can shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards (1" groups), and can dope wind and mirage, you can also shoot 1 MOA at 1000 yards (10" groups).

As to where you can do it is a whole different story. 300 yards and up is available in the New England area. Depending on exactly what configuration your AR is, you can shoot it at 300 to 600 yards.
 
You wanna know the toughest thing about shooting well at long distances, at least to me anyway, is holding your breath and timing your pulse rate. Once I steady and hold my breath, I can see the reticle bounce with my pulse. I count and take my shot in between beats when I know the crosshairs will be where I want em'.
Sounds like i'm trying for the head shot at 1000 yards but i'm just trying to hit spent shell casings at 100 with lower power optics. [smile] Its tougher in the summer when all i'm wearing is a t-shirt. In the winter bulky clothing helps because the rifle isn't right on my shoulder against my skin. I don't use fancy rests or bags, just a duffel bag that I bring my gear in, or block of wood left on the bench that I can rest my hand on.
One of these days when I get serious about it, maybe i'll read up on it or take some classes but for now, heres my idea of bench rest shooting for distance. Just pretend its not a Ruger 22 aiming at spent shells on the 50 yard line and think bigger and further. [grin]

011_15.jpg
 
Just so everyone knows, Bench Rest shooting has several classes and venues.

As Tony said, most of it is done at 100 yards for score or 100 meters for group. They also shoot those classes at 200 yards/meters and 300 yards.

There is a group down in central PA that shoots BR at 1000 yards. What they're shooting is pretty much an unlimited gun, about the same as Heavy Bench Unrestricted class.

I'll also tell you the 2 reasons I gave up Bench Rest. Time and money. Building a gun wasn't bad, traveling to shoots and directly related expenses weren't bad. Time to practice and components to practice, as well as replacing worn barrels (shot out from practice) at $300 each, not counting machine work, was the killer. I hit a cross roads where I found I needed to practice far more to get better.

Now, so you don't get discouraged. I suggest attending an Appleseed shoot, to get trained and find out if you'll like long distance. Some of them are done at decent distance ranges. We're hoping to get the one in Vermont held at a 600 yard capable facility.
 
C-pher said:
Back to the type. As I don't know what each shooting class is Tony. I would like to learn one that's prone, or maybe bench...or both.
Click to expand...

You basically have 3 true long-range competitions:

Service rifle - AR or M1A shot prone, sling supported, iron sights at 600 and 1,000 yards.

Palma - Custom built single shot bolt action receiver chambered in .308 using the 155 gr. match bullet shot prone, sling supported, iron sights at 800, 900 and 1,000 yards.

F-Class - Is any / any meaning any rifle with any sight. Must be .338 (IIRC) or smaller and is shot between 600 and 1,000 yards. Shot prone, can be supported front and rear.


I disagree with Nickle that MOA is MOA. In theory that would be true. However, even excluding environmental affects, bullet designs, flaws, and relaoding techniques as well as the rifle will show up at longer distances that may / will not appear at 100 yards.
 
F-class, so getting an AR-30 in .338 Laupa would work. Which could be cheaper than this CZ.

Just using an example as I don't know that much about the AR-30, or the .338 Laupa. Other than the rifle looks cool. And before you jump on me Tony, [grin] I know that a cool rifle doesn't mean squat.

Again, I would like to try this before I go spending tons of money. As I understand that you need more than a rifle and scope. There's clothing, and gear. But it would be nice to try it, and check out different rifles if I could.

That's why I was thinking that that shoot in VT would be good Nickle. I didn't really get into the thread because it got all political and I just stopped reading it...

Anyway, it would be good. I could bring my AR. I have one with the heavy stainless barrel. It was a buddy that was selling it, and he didn't want it so I got it cheap. It's got some crappy AK break on it, but they drilled the barrel to get it on. So I don't know how that pin is going to effect the accuracy.

Anyway...
 
C-pher said:
That's why I was thinking that that shoot in VT would be good Nickle. I didn't really get into the thread because it got all political and I just stopped reading it...
Click to expand...

The only folks that really got political were the nay sayers. RWVA is less political than here, believe it or not.

I think F-Class is max 8mm. You need to verify before you buy a gun.
 
C-pher, as I understand the rules that would be fine. Like Nickle said, check to make sure on the cal. F-Class was intended to get the hunters involved in shooting competition, I believe, as they could bring their deer rifles and have a class to compete against each other at longer distances. It's relatively new and hasn't really caught on to my knowledge.

Sounds like Nickle's shoot will be a good opportunity to try some things out.
 
Anyway, it would be good. I could bring my AR. I have one with the heavy stainless barrel. It was a buddy that was selling it, and he didn't want it so I got it cheap. It's got some crappy AK break on it, but they drilled the barrel to get it on. So I don't know how that pin is going to effect the accuracy.
Click to expand...

Probably quite a bit, even a standard pinned front sight base will cause a tight spot as well as the standard compensator that uses a crush washer.

The relative ease to an accurate AR is a quality barrel with the correct twist with nothing interfering with the barrel.
 
Maybe we can clean out that appleseed thread? Not deleting it, or anything, but just splitting what went on there into an appleseed political thread and leaving the appleseed sticky announcement/date thread as a clean one?

I guess you have to choose bench/nobench iron/optics and how custom of a gun you want when it comes to competing. Even High Power service rifle (the least custom of the competitions) guns can be pretty heavily customized within their limitations. Just as an example, I'm an military rifle fan, don't want to shoot using a bench, want to learn iron sights before I get into optics, and I want as little customization/equipment as I can get away with. So service rifle competition is the place for me (and appleseeds even better!) You may be totally different.

Tony's right that MOA isn't MOA, once you're out at distance. But for teaching yourself to fire the shot, which I'm assuming (maybe incorrectly) is the level C-pher is at, it does the job. Once you have the fundamentals ingrained, then you can get into the world of all the other equipment/range stuff out there to improve even more. And learning the basics doesn't have to cost more than surplus ammo. You already have an AR of some type, so you're already set. Go to a couple different styles of long range competition and try out some other rifles/equipment (other people at rifle shoots are awesome and will let you) and see what you like eyes/hands on before you drop a couple grand on your own stuff.

90% of any kind of competition like this (guns, music, whatever) is just competing against yourself anyway. Especially when everybody's separately shooting at their own target (well... usually [smile] ). Since I'm still relatively new to the guns, I just ratchet that number up to 100% and go at my own pace.
 
C-pher said:
F-class, so getting an AR-30 in .338 Laupa would work. Which could be cheaper than this CZ.

Just using an example as I don't know that much about the AR-30, or the .338 Laupa. Other than the rifle looks cool. And before you jump on me Tony, [grin] I know that a cool rifle doesn't mean squat.

Anyway...
Click to expand...
F class rules are limited to 8MM, no brakes. F class wasn't started for deer rifles, it was started for shooters whose eyesight was not good enough for metalic sights. It allows a bipod, or front rest and a rear support also. Front and rear supports must be independent of each other.
I didn't see the thread with the CZ, but, $3500.00 for a CZ seems steep, especially if it's on a Mauser based action like some of their other rifles.
 
crakowski said:
Maybe we can clean out that appleseed thread? Not deleting it, or anything, but just splitting what went on there into an appleseed political thread and leaving the appleseed sticky announcement/date thread as a clean one?
Click to expand...

Once dates are locked in, I'll be starting a new thread anyways. I will also ask to keep the politicial comments to the other thread as well, so they don't gum up the process of letting the folks interested the peculiars.

I can tell you that the range is in the works, more a scheduling issue/approval issue than anything else at this point.

I know that the MOA isn't the same all the way out, but, as it pertains to most folks, it is more accurate than you'll believe. My bench guns used to shoot better MOA wise, the further out you went. And that's with a 22 caliber centerfire and 52 gr bullets.

C-Pher, if you want to take a stab at F-Class, come up Mem Day Weekend. I've got a gun that qualifies (Bolt gun, 308, heavy barrel, scoped) and the other equipment (bags). Only limitations will be range, since we're only 100 yard capable there. I've got targets that will be enough challenge as well. I'm thinking the 25 meter prone target, set up at 100 yards. That works out to upper torso shots at 1600 yards.

Crak, what are you up to that weekend? I smell a challenge.
 
The Vermont state highpower match is Memorial Day weekend. It's at Ethen Allen, and includes a prone version, including F class. You might want to check it out. The prone match is 600 yards only.
 
I was trying to see about coming up that weekend...

But with Nicolle not working and losing half our income... And gas already at 3 bucks a gallon. (I paid $2.93 this morning) Traveling this summer is now going to be hard.

But we'll see what's going on... I'll keep my fingers crossed.
 
Dan S said:
The Vermont state highpower match is Memorial Day weekend. It's at Ethen Allen, and includes a prone version, including F class. You might want to check it out. The prone match is 600 yards only.
Click to expand...

So you all know, that is the same place and the same range we're looking at for the Appleseed shoot.
 
C-pher

It was I that said; I don’t think you will find it quite as hard as you imagine.

The reason that lots of people don’t do it is cost and the time and energy to drive someplace that has a suitable range and competitions is prohibitive. Here are the ranges available to us.

Peaskill NY – Military 600yds and counts as NE since it is just over the border but access is restricted and they only have a couple of matches.
Ft. Devens MA– 600yds military – enough flaming hoops to make the military autocrats happy. NO MATCHES
Camp Edwards MA – 600yds same as Devens but worse. NO MATCHES
Curtis Guild MA - Defunct even worse than Edwards and they won’t let you in the pits without a Kevlar and PASGT armor. NO MATCHES
Reading MA – 600yds and lots of matches
Nashua NH – 600yds and lots of matches
Pelham NH – lots of talk about 600 but nothing yet
Ethan Allen – Military 600yds and a couple of points at 1000yds, but like Peaskill and only one real match so to speak.
Hampden ME – 600yds and lots of matches.

Also to get to a real 1000yd range you have to drive to Colonie (near Albany) or Quantico VA or if you are feeling international then you can head north to Cannaught near Ottawa or New Brunswick and shoot 900meters, but don’t forget to pay for a license (a hundred or so dollars).

Most of the time a match will take all friggin day. That means a hotel and more money. I can’t tell you the number of times I drove home from Quantico VA on a Sunday afternoon. Pure hell after three days of shooting in hot weather.

The rife and equipment are really secondary expenses. Beyond this, people are intimidated by all the gear.

Brian
 
Brian, that post was exactly something I was looking for before I even knew I was looking for it yet. Thanks man.
 
Nickle,

C-pher beat me to it though. His post summed it up better than mine

I've only shot three matches in about the past seven years. I miss the shooting but not the time and money flying out of pockets.

Brian
 
Brian, I'm up there usually every month or so, but not too often by that specific range (the KD range). Come to think of it, they do have a few firing points at 1000 there. A friend was shooting his 6x284 on it. Wouldn't that be awesome to do at an Appleseed.

I have shot about 1500 meters up there, but that was a 50 cal, using optics, with a real heavy mount (Direct Fire Sub Caliber Device [M2 HB MG] on an M109A5 Howitzer, 155mm SP), over by range 6-5 or 6-6.
 
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Having a little trouble following the intent of this thread, but if I get it right, somebody is looking for a rifle for long-range work (I'm assuming that means 600-1000yds). If it's something that your not totally sure you want to spend a pile of money on, why not buy a Savage 10FP? The price is right (under $600) and I've never seen a Savage that isn't accurate.
 

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