Liberals With Guns ???

[clinotus]

I had no idea you guys were husband and wife; not that it is of any matter at all. It is always good to see female shooters, and its a two for one deal with a married couple that has both partners into the 'sports'.

 

[Erebus]

[*]I'm not in favor of tax increases. In fact, I'd like to see taxes decrease for the middle class, working class, and the poor. As it stands I think they bear a disproportionate amount of the tax burden in this country.
[/LIST]

According to the IRS dollar for dollar the top 1% pay about the same amount as the bottom 95%. so that means that the top 5% are sending more dollars to the gov than the other 95%. So who bears a disproportionate amount of the tax burden?

 

[Admin]

Thank you for a civil response, you didn't jump in with name calling and Ad Hominem attacks. Now, let me address your points:


[*]I'm not in favor of tax increases. In fact, I'd like to see taxes decrease for the middle class, working class, and the poor. As it stands I think they bear a disproportionate amount of the tax burden in this country.

Please do yourself a favor and take a look at the Federal Tax bracket and tell me how any educated person can tell me the middle, working, and poor classes pay a dispropportionate amount of taxes.

No attack here but you need to put down the Kool-Aid. Was your statement tongue in cheek, because it's exactly opposite of what the bracket is.

http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm

 

[Blitz1]

Personally I consider myself a Libertarian. This thread is a perfect example of why we need to get together and build the Libertarian party.

Too many people are separated by the two party systems. The us vs. them mentality. The simple fact is that we are all Americans with a similar belief. Small Government, Individual Freedom, the Right to Defend Yourself and personal responsiblity.

We also believe in the Constitution, which has been raped by both parties. [sad2]

If you believe that then you're welcome here. Maybe we can work together.

On the other hand I know liberals are typically subversives and work from the inside out. Divide and Conquer. Why would you vote for anyone that represents the exact opposite of what is stated above?

The liberal party in the U.S. was born out of the socialist party in the U.S. I have no trust for them.

Take that as you will.

 

[GrendelKhan]

Well, that's just great. Really? Liberals are the only ones who are anti-gun? Threats to our rights can only come from the left? Get a clue, people. Your rights ARE being taken away. By both sides. Seems to me that the politicians on the so-called left and the so-called right are both whores to the same interests these days - or close enough for government work... They certainly don't work for the people. They certainly don't work for us. Their arguing about whatever details seems to me more theater than political perspective.

This never-ending battle to keep our right to keep and bear arms will ONLY be won by including the MAJORITY of decent people in America. Or something resembling a majority. We are losing. Your obvious hatred of the left will only prove to the average person that you are wrong, and dangerous, and strengthen their resolve to disarm you. They are going to be brutal on us when the next Columbine happens.

But that's just great. Good work. Turn more people away. Push more people to the other side. How is that working out for us? What kind of people are they voting in? Speaking of "divide and conquer"... Those who push people to the other side might as well be working for the Brady Campaign.

They will come for your guns the day that they decide that most people won't care what happens to you. And every time you told a liberal or a moderate to f*** off, instead of teaching them about the 2A and why it's so critical to our survival as a free people, helped them do that.

So go ahead, write your angry letters to the politicians who don't care about our ever-tinier minority. And argue with, and make fun of, and scare the people around you. And do what you will when the time comes, and they're knocking on your door... And pretend for now that that's enough. It is not.

Or maybe, just maybe, be decent to the people around you. Take them to the range. Put a gun in their hand, teach them to shoot. Teach them about the Constitution, the 2A, and why it's important. If you do it right, maybe you'll even earn their respect. Convert a person who is scared of guns, or a person on the left, and many of the people in the middle will come to us on their own.

WAKE THE f*** UP!

 

[Admin]

Umm Grendel, being a gun owner doesn't stop you from voting for gun grabbers. It's already been shown in this thread.

 

[theGringo]

This never-ending battle to keep our right to keep and bear arms will ONLY be won by including the MAJORITY of decent people in America. Or something resembling a majority. We are losing. Your obvious hatred of the left will only prove to the average person that you are wrong, and dangerous, and strengthen their resolve to disarm you. They are going to be brutal on us when the next Columbine happens.

But that's just great. Good work. Turn more people away. Push more people to the other side. How is that working out for us? What kind of people are they voting in? Speaking of "divide and conquer"... Those who push people to the other side might as well be working for the Brady Campaign.

"Decent people in America" are already a minority, as evidenced by the last election. When push comes to shove, even the pro-gun left will surrender the second amendment to a higher cause and the "common good".

Don't trust 'em.

 

[GrendelKhan]

Umm Grendel, being a gun owner doesn't stop you from voting for gun grabbers. It's already been shown in this thread.

That's not my point.

If one is running for office in certain areas of the country, one needs to be a gun-grabber, or something in the middle, or one loses the election. And after the next Columbine happens, they'll mostly all be gun-grabbers. Because that is what is demanded by their constituents.

This battle will only be won by taking this issue away from them. This can ONLY be done by getting people to our side. By getting it to the point where it is not a wedge issue - where it is not a right thing or a left thing.

This forum is a huge opportunity to get thru to people on the other side...

 

[Blitz1]

Well, that's just great. Really? Liberals are the only ones who are anti-gun? Threats to our rights can only come from the left? Get a clue, people. Your rights ARE being taken away. By both sides. Seems to me that the politicians on the so-called left and the so-called right are both whores to the same interests these days - or close enough for government work... They certainly don't work for the people. They certainly don't work for us. Their arguing about whatever details seems to me more theater than political perspective.

This never-ending battle to keep our right to keep and bear arms will ONLY be won by including the MAJORITY of decent people in America. Or something resembling a majority. We are losing. Your obvious hatred of the left will only prove to the average person that you are wrong, and dangerous, and strengthen their resolve to disarm you. They are going to be brutal on us when the next Columbine happens.

But that's just great. Good work. Turn more people away. Push more people to the other side. How is that working out for us? What kind of people are they voting in? Speaking of "divide and conquer"... Those who push people to the other side might as well be working for the Brady Campaign.

They will come for your guns the day that they decide that most people won't care what happens to you. And every time you told a liberal or a moderate to f*** off, instead of teaching them about the 2A and why it's so critical to our survival as a free people, helped them do that.

So go ahead, write your angry letters to the politicians who don't care about our ever-tinier minority. And argue with, and make fun of, and scare the people around you. And do what you will when the time comes, and they're knocking on your door... And pretend for now that that's enough. It is not.

Or maybe, just maybe, be decent to the people around you. Take them to the range. Put a gun in their hand, teach them to shoot. Teach them about the Constitution, the 2A, and why it's important. If you do it right, maybe you'll even earn their respect. Convert a person who is scared of guns, or a person on the left, and many of the people in the middle will come to us on their own.

WAKE THE f*** UP!

All the more reason we need to STOP voting for the 2 parties that keep pissing on the Constitution, now is the time to get these idiots out republican or democrat.

"government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth".

+1 to who can name the source of the quote in the next 30 seconds


The majority or our politicians do not support or believe in our Constitution.

They got into power how?

 

[Admin]

I have a hard time finding sympathy for a gun owner who votes Obama or for any liberal for that matter. Then I am told that the middle class, working class, and poor pay more than their fair share of taxes by one of these liberals.

How do you interact or buddy up with people who have that much flawed logic?

I am trying to be serious here. It seems Bush Derangement Syndrome is far reaching and to be totally honest I will get anyone in to shooting who shows interest, but when I find out they think like the above, I am all done. They are beyone help, they are beyond showing the light to. You can't help someone who thinks like that. You simply can't.

 

[GrendelKhan]

"Decent people in America" are already a minority, as evidenced by the last election. When push comes to shove, even the pro-gun left will surrender the second amendment to a higher cause and the "common good".

Don't trust 'em.

Then all is lost. Because your perspective isn't going to win us anything resembling a majority in support of the 2A. Between the anti-gunners on that side, and people on our side who are working against us, I don't see it working out for us. And so they are going to come for our guns.

If the 2A is what I think it is, then it really shouldn't be so freaking hard to convince people what's right. It's just a simple matter of having the conversation... about 100 million times...

Or leave them to the Brady Campaign. They'll be glad you did...

 

[theGringo]

Then all is lost ...

Yepper. That's kinda my thinkin', right there. Revolution, baby!

 

[Kalahari]

Unless you believe that half this country is beyond delusional, then there is purpose to trying to persuade these people. Stranger things have happened.

 

[theGringo]

Unless you believe that half this country is beyond delusional, then there is purpose to trying to persuade these people. Stranger things have happened.

You're young, Kalahari. Call me in 25 or 30 years and tell me if you still feel the same way. You get tired after a time of being played for a fool, and you move on.

 

[Kalahari]

If you know so well that we are correct on these issues, then we should have no trouble convincing others if they aren't irrational. That's definitely possible, but throwing your hands in the air never accomplished anything.

Everything I've ever really wanted in life (as short as you think it may be) I've earned through persistence. I don't care how young I am, that's something that applies to a lot of people. I'm not going to give up on fellow Americans because I'm too f***ing lazy. Are there loonies out there? Absolutely. But I refuse to believe that so many people are blind idiots. If they are, we're f***ed no matter what they believe.

Believe me, I grew tired of it very quickly. That's why I left Newton for Dallas. Its almost a complete 180. But I'm not going to turn my back on any liberal I meet simply because many or most of the others I've met should be institutionalized.

 

[Blitz1]

I have a hard time finding sympathy for a gun owner who votes Obama or for any liberal for that matter. Then I am told that the middle class, working class, and poor pay more than their fair share of taxes by one of these liberals.

How do you interact or buddy up with people who have that much flawed logic?

I am trying to be serious here. It seems Bush Derangement Syndrome is far reaching and to be totally honest I will get anyone in to shooting who shows interest, but when I find out they think like the above, I am all done. They are beyone help, they are beyond showing the light to. You can't help someone who thinks like that. You simply can't.

I understand that. My point is to stop voting for the idiots in control now, we need something else, somebody that supports the Constitution.

You know as well, if not better that I, sometimes you need allies to win. History supports that.

We're not talking about people here that are so far gone there isn't hope, we're talking about people who are in the middle, that vote emotionally because they're fustrated.

I don't subscibe to that but there are a lot of people that do.

If we can come together than we will be become more powerful and maybe we can enlist more people to our cause and not shun them.

Or We have to resort to the tactics they use...

 

[GrendelKhan]

I have a hard time finding sympathy for a gun owner who votes Obama or for any liberal for that matter. Then I am told that the middle class, working class, and poor pay more than their fair share of taxes by one of these liberals.

How do you interact or buddy up with people who have that much flawed logic?

I am trying to be serious here. It seems Bush Derangement Syndrome is far reaching and to be totally honest I will get anyone in to shooting who shows interest, but when I find out they think like the above, I am all done. They are beyone help, they are beyond showing the light to. You can't help someone who thinks like that. You simply can't.

I'm not suggesting that you need to sympathize with people who voted for Obama. Look, we can certainly all find things to argue about. I personally think that people who voted for McCain are basically the same as those who voted for Obama, and have a hard time sympathizing with them, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Finding reasons to argue is EXACTLY what the powers-that-be want you to do. They are taking away your right to keep and bear arms, and we're arguing with each other about who pays what for taxes? Bad idea.

If a person's logic is so flawed, then they should be easy to convince.

This site does more to support the 2A than I could ever do, so please understand that I hold you in very high esteem. But don't think for one second that anyone is beyond help, or incapable of learning. Were you always the man who you are now? Are you not still learning about life? I am still learning. I think most people are. We need more people on our side. They will listen, if we are right, and we frame the conversation the right way.

I'm not suggesting that every one of us needs to do everything. This site is a huge service to this community. But if we're even willing to push away people who support guns, then that will lead to bad things...

 

[Bill Nance]

I have a hard time finding sympathy for a gun owner who votes Obama or for any liberal for that matter. Then I am told that the middle class, working class, and poor pay more than their fair share of taxes by one of these liberals.

How do you interact or buddy up with people who have that much flawed logic?

I am trying to be serious here. It seems Bush Derangement Syndrome is far reaching and to be totally honest I will get anyone in to shooting who shows interest, but when I find out they think like the above, I am all done. They are beyone help, they are beyond showing the light to. You can't help someone who thinks like that. You simply can't.

OK, Derek, I voted for Obama, for which I make no apologies.

I disagreed stridently with Obama on gun rights. Mccain, and more importantly to me Palin, represented a huge number of positions on religion, belicosity of US foreign policy and grasp of "soft power" with which I totally disagreed, not to mention stances on things like the Patriot Act and a half-assed "liberal" view of economics which wasn't even close to the (small l) libertarian I might have had sympathy with.

There were 2 choices. vote for the guy with whom I had 2 serious disagreements with ( guns and tax policy) or vote for the guy who didn't seem to believe in ANYTHING beyond getting elected, including gun rights. I chose the guy whom I disagreed with on 2 policies.

To me, any vote to get more religion involved in politics and ,more bellicosity in foreign policy (which worked so well in Iraq and Afghanistan) is more insidious than attempts which can be opposed, have already been declared unconstitutional and may well be declared unconstitutional AGAIN could possibly be.

That's a reasonable difference in opinion with you, which I understand. To pretend that this somehow means I have no grasp of the importance of 2A is silly.

What you would have me believe is that 2A trumps 10A or 1A or 4A, all of which have been pooped all over by the Republicans for 7 years. I simply disagree. That's a matter of opinion, not a matter of either one of us being anti-2A or anti-American.

It's what makes democracy work.

 

[Admin]

Absolutely. But I refuse to believe that so many people are blind idiots. If they are, we're f***ed no matter what they believe.

You're a lot more optimistic than me. You're right about your second sentence there, when our economy hits rock bottom, we are f-ed...

 

[GrendelKhan]

My point is to stop voting for the idiots in control now, we need something else, somebody that supports the Constitution.

It's the people who are voting that we need to change. I agree that we need new people in office, like you say, but I generally think that pols will say whatever they think sells.

We have to change what sells. The only way I can see to do that is to get people to our side.

 

[Kalahari]

You're a lot more optimistic than me. You're right about your second sentence there, when our economy hits rock bottom, we are f-ed...

I suppose so, and maybe that's just my age speaking.


Bill - I generally find you to be a reasonable person here, though I have to question why you felt forced to vote for either Obama or McCain. I'm quite sick of people thinking they have to vote either Republican or Democrat.

 

[Bill Nance]

Bill - I generally find you to be a reasonable person here, though I have to question why you felt forced to vote for either Obama or McCain. I'm quite sick of people thinking they have to vote either Republican or Democrat.

Simple. I could have made a protest vote, as I did with other choices, or I could vote for the guy I though could A: win and B: represented the least evil.

I chose B.

I've voted republican many times, including in this election, which I voted for my republican state legislator. Palin, based on what I consider her extremist religious opinions and her coziness with a secessionist party, not to mention what I consider her utter ignorance on every issue of national importance made me absolutely firm in my opposition the the Rep. ticket.

I'm not a registered Dem and never have been. In fact, during the campaign I was turned down for door-to-door campaigning because I wasn't willing to campaign for Jean Shaheen.

If the libertarians start being something other than a fringe party I'll consider working for them. In the meantime I have to choose between to evils.

 

[Admin]

If the libertarians start being something other than a fringe party I'll consider working for them. In the meantime I have to choose between to evils.

That's what I am doing for now.

 

[Blitz1]

I'm not suggesting that you need to sympathize with people who voted for Obama. Look, we can certainly all find things to argue about. I personally think that people who voted for McCain are basically the same as those who voted for Obama, and have a hard time sympathizing with them, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Finding reasons to argue is EXACTLY what the powers-that-be want you to do. They are taking away your right to keep and bear arms, and we're arguing with each other about who pays what for taxes? Bad idea.

If a person's logic is so flawed, then they should be easy to convince.

This site does more to support the 2A than I could ever do, so please understand that I hold you in very high esteem. But don't think for one second that anyone is beyond help, or incapable of learning. Were you always the man who you are now? Are you not still learning about life? I am still learning. I think most people are. We need more people on our side. They will listen, if we are right, and we frame the conversation the right way.

I'm not suggesting that every one of us needs to do everything. This site is a huge service to this community. But if we're even willing to push away people who support guns, then that will lead to bad things...

OK, Derek, I voted for Obama, for which I make no apologies.

I disagreed stridently with Obama on gun rights. Mccain, and more importantly to me Palin, represented a huge number of positions on religion, belicosity of US foreign policy and grasp of "soft power" with which I totally disagreed, not to mention stances on things like the Patriot Act and a half-assed "liberal" view of economics which wasn't even close to the (small l) libertarian I might have had sympathy with.

There were 2 choices. vote for the guy with whom I had 2 serious disagreements with ( guns and tax policy) or vote for the guy who didn't seem to believe in ANYTHING beyond getting elected, including gun rights. I chose the guy whom I disagreed with on 2 policies.

To me, any vote to get more religion involved in politics and ,more bellicosity in foreign policy (which worked so well in Iraq and Afghanistan) is more insidious than attempts which can be opposed, have already been declared unconstitutional and may well be declared unconstitutional AGAIN could possibly be.

That's a reasonable difference in opinion with you, which I understand. To pretend that this somehow means I have no grasp of the importance of 2A is silly.

What you would have me believe is that 2A trumps 10A or 1A or 4A, all of which have been pooped all over by the Republicans for 7 years. I simply disagree. That's a matter of opinion, not a matter of either one of us being anti-2A or anti-American.

It's what makes democracy work.

People are fed up. This Country is going down, quickly. There are ways to save it.

1st step: Supporters of the Constitution need to come together...

Ratification of the Constitution
Date State Votes
Yes No
1 December 7, 1787 Delaware 30 0
2 December 11, 1787 Pennsylvania 46 23
3 December 18, 1787 New Jersey 38 0
4 January 2, 1788 Georgia 26 0
5 January 9, 1788 Connecticut 128 40
6 February 6, 1788 Massachusetts 187 168
7 April 26, 1788 Maryland 63 11
8 May 23, 1788 South Carolina 149 73
9 June 21, 1788 New Hampshire 57 47
10 June 25, 1788 Virginia 89 79
11 July 26, 1788 New York 30 27
12 November 21, 1789 North Carolina 194 77
13 May 29, 1790 Rhode Island 34 32

Get it?

 

[Bill Nance]

People are fed up. This Country is going down, quickly. There are ways to save it.

1st step: Supporters of the Constitution need to come together...
Get it?

Absolutely! We (virtually) all agree on probably 80% of issues. We disagree on 20%. We're going to let that 20% separate us? Not if I have anything to say about it.

 

[Kalahari]

Simple. I could have made a protest vote, as I did with other choices, or I could vote for the guy I though could A: win and B: represented the least evil...
If the libertarians start being something other than a fringe party I'll consider working for them. In the meantime I have to choose between to evils.

I don't see any rational justification for not voting Libertarian in this. You'll vote for someone because they have a better chance of winning? That's insane. They only have a better chance of winning because 1) They have more money, and 2) Everyone has this same thinking that they have a better chance of winning.

 

[CrossFrire]

I'm a woman and I'm a liberal. I also love our guns and our 2A rights. BUT... when I come to these forums and read the consistent 'liberal' bashing and some of the hyperbole I feel distinctly unwelcome here. I've met lots of people on this forum, who are the sweetest, nicest people I could wish to meet. The people at my gun club are with very rare exceptions also the nicest, sweetest people you could meet.

What we all share is our commitment to 2A and our love of guns. But sometimes I wonder if being pro-2A isn't "good enough" for some folks here.

Can you imagine a Liberal today uttering these words on the floor of the US Senate?

"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms. ... The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America but which historically has proven to be possible." Hubert H Humphrey, United States Senator (D-Minnesota) 1960

When I moved to Mass 20+ years ago I was definately Left of Center and called myself a Liberal. Today I am a "Reformed Liberal and Recovering Democrat".
I always feared and distrusted government but time and experience have taught me that the tyranny I always expected from the Right is far more lilely to come from the Left.

Conervatives here can be somewhat strident but I frequent sites like DUMB, HufPo and the Daily Koz and the enlightened liberals who inhabit those places are the most hatefull and mean spirited people I have found on the 'net. Try posting the slightest critique of the Dear Leader on any Lib site and you'll get a real fast exposure to hate speech.

 

[jhblaze1]

I've seen some interesting responses to Caillean's post about whether her gun ownership is "good enough" here to offset her liberal beliefs. Well I think there is not an easy answer to that and it depends. With a low post count, and my absenteeism over the last few days (I was in Amsterdam!!!) it's hard for me to know what her posts are generally like. Her post on page 1 of this thread certainly doesn't seem to be trolling to me.

Is your gun ownership good enough despite your liberalism? Yes and No. It really depends. Most here are conservative, that's for sure. Many libertarians too. The result is a large group on very pro-capitalism, pro gun, pro liberty, red blooded Americans.

We do not want, nor do we tolerate socialism. We believe that all men/women have the right to make choices in life. We also beleive that the results/consequences of those choices are our to own and no one elses. If I make great choices, deliberating on the possible outcomes, and work hard towards a goal, then the fruits of that labor are MINE. Not yours, not the masses, MINE.

Likewise, if I habitually make poor choices throughout my life, the consequences are also MINE. Not yours, not the masses, MINE. I don't expenct anyone to clean up my mess if I continually screw up. Sure maybe a good Samaritan will come along and offer me help. Maybe not. But people have the choice to help those who are deserving or not.

You're ideology is in direct conflict with these beliefs. You beleive that I should be compelled by force to give away (read have taken from me) the fruits of my labors. You believe that what I have earned as a result of a lifetime of hard workd, studying, shcooling, and more and more work is not really mine to keep. You believe the YOU have the RIGHT to TAKE what others have EARNED. You believe that stealing is OK so long as the government is the theif.

Why do you liberals hate freedom and everything this country was founded on? I am asking a serious question here. How can you pretend to value liberty, when you're primary political belief as a liberal is that it is OK to take from others and redistribute as you see fit? How can you even call that freedom with a straight face?

The problem that I believe liberals have with conservatives is that you think we are all greedy capitalists who don't give a damn about anyone. The truth is that we are typically (and there are statistics to prove it) far more generous and charitable than you. We give to charity because we feel it's the right thing to do.

You believe that the .gov has the right to take money from us under the threat of force so that it can be given to "those in need".

I work 50 hours plus a week for pay that I think is below my market value. I pay my bills and have a lot less money left over than I'd like. I can't afford nice vacations all the time, I don't go out to eat a lot, I don't drive a car I can't afford, and I don't take out mortgages I can't afford. I'm a responsible adult. I live within my means and look for opportunities to better my lot in life.

You believe that it's ok for people to stretch themselves too thin and then take money from other people to make up for it. You beleive that it's ok for people to take out mortgages that are out of their league and the when they get in trouble, I should help pay for it! I don't even have a god damned house, and you want the .gov to 'compell' me to pay to bail someone else out of theirs. How dare you.

So you're complaining of the way you percieve to be treated 'round here is not going to get you a lot of sympathy. Although I'm sure you can get along just fine if you a) avoid the political discussions or b) argue your case with facts (unfortunately, facts are rarely on a liberals side so that might be tough).

But, welcome to the board anyway. We need people from all political viewpoints to work toward our common goal. A pro gun liberal is just as good as a pro gun conservative when it comes to supporting our cause. The only problem is that you need to consider how important guns are to you becuase the majority of your chosen party, including the New God, are anti's, which means everytime you cast a ballot you're likely voting against something that is supposedly important to you.

 

[biff44]

I, over the last 30 years or so, hold my nose and vote Republican. The main reason is that they mostly vote for gun rights and less government. mostly.

But I will tell you, as I get older, some of the republican issues rile me more. Why are they sooo interested in open visa policies that let foreign workers in to take high level jobs with low level pay? Why are they soooo interested in letting companies globablize and move all manufacturing offshore. Why have they recently become big spending politicians, instead of the frugal penny pinching ones I remember from long ago. Why do they reduce all financial regulations, such as the short selling uptick rule and other things that let our banks and brokerages turn into mafia organizations?

And where was Bush the last two terms with gun rights bills? There is a lot more he could have done.

I would much more want to vote for a libertarian, but where ARE the serious candidates? In Mass, the local republican party is completely dead. Mass senatators run unapposed often! Why can't there be a valid libertarian candidate, well funded, who actually runs a real race?

What a complete mess.

 

[CrossFrire]

I agree that Mass is a totally lost cause.
Democracy here has ceased to function and a corrupt political cabal has absolute control and I can not envision anything every changing that short of catyclismic social change.
Since my son is graduating high school in June I have convinced the wife to start interviewing out of State and we have the house on the market.
We are moving Spouth to be closer to family.
We have no serious credit debt, never took a 2nd mortage, drive plain cars and I am furious that I am expected to cough up massive taxes on our savings to fund people who can't manage their lives like adults.