LenS and vellnueve, another round of questions

[depicts]

LenS and vellnueve, another round of questions.

In another thread we were talking about whether I had to log a 50 year old Masterpiece .22 in my C&R book.

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20674

I approached it several ways, and you guys were pretty firm on your answer that YES, I did in fact have to log it in my book, even if I bought it on my LTC-A, and not my C&R.

Well I've run into another contradiction in this process, and want to see if you or anyone else has an opinion or an answer.

I talked to the dealer who sold me the gun. I told him it's too bad I got delayed in picking it up, since I could have bought it on my C&R license, and not have had a NICS check done.

He said, "Is it on the list?"

I said, it's 50 years old or more, and owned in Massachusetts since new, does it have to be on a list? What list? Federal or state?

He said it had to be on the Firearms Curios or Relics List, ATF P 5300.

The last copy I have is .11, revised April 2004.

Without it being on the list, the dealer (Walter Carr) said he could NOT sell it to me as a C&R.

Now I know this is debatable, and maybe I could file for a determination from BATFE. The thing is, if the dealer feels he must treat it as a NON C&R gun, and I don't see it on the list, I don't feel I have to log it in my C&R Book.

I know my "feelings" don't matter for anything, but I think this situation is so ambiguous, that even BATFE would let it slide ( yeah, right, they're prone to do that)

Do you or anyone else have a more current list of Curious and Relics that lists a K22 Masterpiece WITH LETTER IN THE SERIAL NUMBER, as a C&R gun?

I'm looking forward to your answers, especially since vellnueve posted that nice graphic with a character pointing to a book of Rulez!

 

[MarkM]

Here is the most current list:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a Firearm was C&R eligible if it was 50yrs old OR on the list, not 50 yrs old AND on the list.

WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?

As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 178.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

Note: The following list of Curios or Relics is not all-inclusive.

 

[depicts]

MarkM, Thanks, I think you hit it right on the head. The dealer isinorrect, and I'll drop down his shop and show him that regulation, wich is in the introdction of my pamphlet.

Thanks for the quick response.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mark is right.

There is NO ambiguity here.

Your dealer needs to take "Remedial Reading 101", as he obviously has no idea what he's doing as an FFL!!

HE is supposed to KNOW the Fed Regs/Laws that affect his business, and he's showing his basic ignorance!

Now that said . . . ANY FFL can refuse to sell something to someone or make them go thru NICS/FA-10 even if it is an 01 FFL to 01 FFL transfer. No law/reg would be broken . . . it would just prove that the dealer is anal.

So HE broke no laws/regs by forcing a "normal retail sale". YOU however, WILL be breaking the regs/laws if you don't put it in your BB!

Oh and feel free to show him my response too!!


Personally, I don't care which way a dealer goes if I'm buying, as it is all going to get registered with the state and Feds anyway and I don't get denied on NICS (even though I do NOT give out my SSN). It does bother me however when a Dealer is totally ignorant of the law/regs that they swore to abide by, and I'd probably not be doing much business with said dealer in the future.

 

[depicts]

Len, this is all a learning process for me, and I'm trying to make sure I do it right. I'm thankful you guys are here to advise, and correct my assumptions.

There is a lot to learn, and I've been around guns for decades. I can't imagine what this spider web of laws and regulations would look like to someone new getting involved in our sport.

 

[Patriot]

Len, this is all a learning process for me, and I'm trying to make sure I do it right. I'm thankful you guys are here to advise, and correct my assumptions.

There is a lot to learn, and I've been around guns for decades. I can't imagine what this spider web of laws and regulations would look like to someone new getting involved in our sport.

They are meant to dissuade people from getting involved. That which is clearly
not stated to be legal must be illegal. Works for the IRS, BATF, PRoM, etc.

 

[vellnueve]

Depicts, LenS pretty much nailed it. Your dealer is WRONG. Firearms over fifty years old (with a few exceptions) are C&Rs and can be purchased, transferred, and collected as such. They do NOT have to be on the C&R list. He does have the right to sell it to you as an 01 to unlicensed transaction, however that only mean's that he's being an ass. An ignorant ass, at that.

I would avoid any dealers that don't know the regs in the future.

 

[depicts]

I went back today

I went back today with regulations in hand, and pointed out the definition of what a Curio and Relic is. There are three qualifiers, right at the introduction of the book.

He read it and said,... "yeah, but it isn't in the book, it has to be in the book."

I started to answer... and then just shut my mouth. When someone is that stubborn, why waste your breath. He did say he'd ask the BATFE the next time they came in, but I doubt it.

So that is where I left it.

Oh, and by the way, he told me that for instance, an M1 Garand is on the list, so it is a C&R gun. But he said the M1 Carbine is NOT a C&R gun. Man, other than this forum and Goal, where can you get a straight answer in this state?

 

[Len-2A Training]

That's why we're here!

 

[vellnueve]

The M-1 carbine IS a C&R provided that it is an original USGI. The 1960s commercial models won't be C&Rs for a few years yet.

 

[Emoto]

Depicts,

Unless I misunderstand, you have brought up the concept of buying a gun "on your c&r license" or "on your LTC". This is a concept of little value, as it has zero relevancy to federally mandated 03 FFL record keeping.

While it is correct that the paperwork required for the transfer of ownership differs depending on which license is used, this has no effect on the requirements for recordkeeping. Whenever a C&R license holder acquires a C&R gun, no matter the method used to acquire the gun, the C&R license holder MUST record the gun in the bound book. The license does not acquire the gun; the person acquires the gun.

Again, the details of how the purchase was made have no effect on record keeping.

I hope that helps.

Bob

 

[Pilgrim]

I knew of at least two FFL's who would not believe that the 50 year clause exists and insisted that it had to be on the ATF list.

One I was able to convince.

Another guy insists that all ammo sales must be recorded. "it's the law", he says. I can't convince him otherwise.

Don't get me started on charging sales tax on transfers.

 

[Chris]

IAnother guy insists that all ammo sales must be recorded. "it's the law", he says. I can't convince him otherwise.

Must be an old timer. Ammo sales used to be recorded.

 

[vellnueve]

+1 to Chris. It used to be a requirement.

 

[drgrant]

I knew of at least two FFL's who would not believe that the 50 year clause exists and insisted that it had to be on the ATF list.

One I was able to convince.

Another guy insists that all ammo sales must be recorded. "it's the law", he says. I can't convince him otherwise.

Don't get me started on charging sales tax on transfers.

If you've made an effort to enlighten these people, and they don't get
it, all one can do is move on. (and tell others to avoid them like the
plague).

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

If you've made an effort to enlighten these people, and they don't get
it, all one can do is move on. (and tell others to avoid them like the
plague).

-Mike

+1000

 

[Neptune Cat]

I just found this on www.surplusrifle.com. I don't know much about the subject at hand. Maybe someone who does could set them straight.

A C&R license allows you to purchase rifles, pistols, shotguns and machineguns (yep, there are some of them too) that are on the ATF C&R list. Basically, these are weapons that are at least 50 years or older. HOWEVER, just because a weapon is 50 or more years old, does not make it an automatic C&R eligible weapon. ATF has a web page that lists all of the C&R eligible weapons at:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

Some listings of interest are:

All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946.

All properly marked and identified semiautomatic pistols and revolvers used by, or mfd. for, any military organization prior to 1946.

All shotguns, properly marked and identified as mfd. for any military organization prior to 1946 and in their original military configuration only

U.S. Rifle, caliber .30, M1, original issue only, produced prior to 1958.

 

[KMaurer]

I just found this on www.surplusrifle.com. I don't know much about the subject at hand. Maybe someone who does could set them straight.

A C&R license allows you to purchase rifles, pistols, shotguns and machineguns (yep, there are some of them too) that are on the ATF C&R list. Basically, these are weapons that are at least 50 years or older. HOWEVER, just because a weapon is 50 or more years old, does not make it an automatic C&R eligible weapon. ATF has a web page that lists all of the C&R eligible weapons at:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

Some listings of interest are:
...

Probably hopeless. For starters, a quick glance at the list reveals that it includes not only firearms that are older than 50 years but also firearms that are only a few years old, thus disproving this "expert's" assertion that they're all at least 50 years old. Then, of course, there's both the simple language of the statute and at least one clarifying statement from BATFE confirming that any firearm at least 50 years old is ipso facto C&R eligible. As a wise man once said, never try to teach a pig to sing; it annoys the pig and wastes your time.

Ken

 

[Neptune Cat]

Probably hopeless. For starters, a quick glance at the list reveals that it includes not only firearms that are older than 50 years but also firearms that are only a few years old, thus disproving this "expert's" assertion that they're all at least 50 years old. Then, of course, there's both the simple language of the statute and at least one clarifying statement from BATFE confirming that any firearm at least 50 years old is ipso facto C&R eligible. As a wise man once said, never try to teach a pig to sing; it annoys the pig and wastes your time.

Ken

Do these thoughts come from previous experiance with this websight? Or do you feel this way about everyone who gets something wrong?

I realize this subject is simple and straight forward for some, but it isn't so, for everybody.

 

[Pilgrim]

Forget the surplusrifle.com quote. The only quote that matters is what comes from the BATFE rule book and web site, as quoted above (and here):

WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?

As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 178.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.*****

*****my comment: this is the additional list that they put out every so often.

 

[vellnueve]

Pilgrim, that clause is exclusive, not inclusive. Just because a firearm falls into one of those categories does NOT mean that it is automatically a C&R. Instead, it means that any C&R firearms MUST fall within one of those categories.

There ARE firearms over 50 years old that aren't C&Rs.

 

[Pilgrim]

There ARE firearms over 50 years old that aren't C&Rs.

Never heard of one. Where's the list? There has to be a list to make the exception.

 

[JonJ]

Real simple.
1. On the list of C&Rs? It's a C&R.
OR
2. At least 50 years old. It's a C&R.

The only firearms over 50 yrs that are not C&R are those as classified as antiques.

 

[Pilgrim]

thanks Jon, my sentiments exactly. Don't know why some people can't understand that. It's plain and simple from all the docs I got when I got my C&R.

 

[KMaurer]

Do these thoughts come from previous experiance with this websight? Or do you feel this way about everyone who gets something wrong?

No, I have no previous experience with this particular poster, which is why I began the post with the word "probably". Some people can look at evidence and learn from it; many tend to dig in their heels when it goes against some public statement they've made on the issue.

I realize this subject is simple and straight forward for some, but it isn't so, for everybody.

This is once of those subjects that's relatively simple for people who can parse some of the simpler English written by any government agency. When the text says "one of these categories" and someone argues that this really means "all of these categories", well ...

Ken

 

[vellnueve]

For me, it's just the way the language is written. Saying that a firearm must fall into one of those three categories to be a C&R doesn't automatically mean that any firearm that falls into one of those categories is automatically a C&R. Seems to me that BATF left itself some wiggle room to take some otherwise C&R eligible firearms off the list if they chose to.

I could have sworn that there were a couple of firearms over 50 years old that are specifically considered not C&Rs but I find no evidence, so I cede the point.

 

[Scrivener]

I knew of at least two FFL's who would not believe that the 50 year clause exists and insisted that it had to be on the ATF list.

One I was able to convince.

Another guy insists that all ammo sales must be recorded. "it's the law", he says. I can't convince him otherwise.

Don't get me started on charging sales tax on transfers.

Bet he charges sales tax on safes and locks, as well as filing an FA-10 for a mere frame (assuming he does frames at all).

 

[Neptune Cat]

Real simple.
1. On the list of C&Rs? It's a C&R.
OR
2. At least 50 years old. It's a C&R.

The only firearms over 50 yrs that are not C&R are those as classified as antiques.

That is simple. Sooooo... If they are classified as antiques they are not C&R firearms? Where's the antique list? Is that on the BATFE website?

 

[JonJ]

That is simple. Sooooo... If they are classified as antiques they are not C&R firearms? Where's the antique list? Is that on the BATFE website?

Even simpler. No list.

Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

 

[Neptune Cat]

Even simpler. No list.

Now that is simple. No question wether it is inclusive or exclusive.

I still don't know if the 50 year thing is inclusive or exclusive as vellnueve has pointed out. I'm going to see if I can find an answer or get an answer from BATFE.