Laws regarding online ammo orders in MA

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JustOneOfThosePeople

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Before I get flammed, please allow me to clarify: I'm not looking for any online ammo vendor names (please don't list one), and I'm not asking for someone's opinion on "how" to get ammo shipped anywhere.
I am curious as to how I might view the current statues regarding this issue in MA. I have found a couple enormous matrixes of MA general law, but I'm not sure where in the body I should be looking.
 
Meh, its a touchy subject around here. (especially from a guy with 6 posts) Youre just going to have to spend the time and do the reading.



Off topic- I was reading the transportation section out of curiosity...

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131C

The way section D is worded, it makes it sound like if youre working for the DPW, or any state or municipal entity, youre exempt from the law.

"(d) The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) any officer, agent or employee of the commonwealth or any state or the United States; (ii) any member of the military or other service of any state or of the United States; (iii) any duly authorized law enforcement officer, agent or employee of any municipality of the commonwealth; provided, however, that any such person described in clauses (i) to (iii), inclusive, is authorized by a competent authority to carry or possess the weapon so carried or possessed and is acting within the scope of his duties."

So I work for the MA DOT, (hypothetically), possess a LTC-A, no restrictions, and Im filling a pothole. Im an employee of the commonwealth, Im authorized by a competent authority (CLEO) to carry or possess, and Im acting within the scope of my duties. (filling potholes) Right or wrong?[smile]
 
I don't know the specific statute and law but m knowledge is as follows:

go go ahead and try to buy ammo online-you are not doing anything wrong. The problem is on the sellers end. If you find somewhere that will ship it to you, don't talk about it. Lastly, to my knowledge a vendor has never faced legal action for online sales, but the ag has threatened legal action if they did not stop.

Others can chime in as they see fit, perhaps with actual law.
 
JustOneOfThosePeople said:
Before I get flammed, please allow me to clarify: I'm not looking for any online ammo vendor names (please don't list one), and I'm not asking for someone's opinion on "how" to get ammo shipped anywhere.
I am curious as to how I might view the current statues regarding this issue in MA. I have found a couple enormous matrixes of MA general law, but I'm not sure where in the body I should be looking.
Click to expand...

What, specifically, are you looking for?

If you have an LTC or FID, then you already know that you can purchase ammunition. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 131:

(a) A Class A license shall entitle a holder thereof to purchase, rent, lease, borrow, possess and carry: (i) firearms, including large capacity firearms, and feeding devices and ammunition therefor...
Click to expand...

Full text here: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131

Anyone that wants to sell ammunition in MA must be licensed. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 122B:

Section 122B. No person shall sell ammunition in the commonwealth unless duly licensed. The chief of police or the board or officer having control of the police in a city or town, or persons authorized by them, may, after an investigation into the criminal history of the applicant to determine eligibility to be licensed under this section, grant a license to any person, except an alien, a minor, a person who has been adjudicated a youthful offender, as defined in section fifty-two of chapter one hundred and nineteen, including those who have not received an adult sentence or a person who has been convicted of a felony in any state or federal jurisdiction, or of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs, to sell ammunition. Every license shall specify the street and number, if any, of the building where the business is to be carried on.
Click to expand...

Full text here: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section122B

If you are asking why the AG claims it is illegal for a mail order company to sell ammunition in MA, it is the AG's opinion that for a company that is out-of-state to sell ammunition in MA, they would have to have a license to sell ammunition from every town in MA. Since that company doesn't have an address in a town in MA, they can't get such a license.

If you are asking where is the law that makes it legal for you to order ammunition from an out-of-state vendor, there is no such law. Nor is there any law that makes it illegal for you to do so (assuming you have an LTC or FID).

So what, exactly, do you want to know? If you are specific about that, then we are more likely to be able to point you to the appropriate law (if there is one).
 
You won't find it in the laws. "slugworth" was not being a wise guy when he posted same. The AG didn't like it, so she imposed regulations, and threatened online vendors with lawsuits, if they shipped ammo here. It has yet to be tested in court, but the vendors, fearing lawsuits, reluctantly complied. Many vendors will not ship anything gun related to MA.
 
M1911 said:
What, specifically, are you looking for?

If you have an LTC or FID, then you already know that you can purchase ammunition. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 131:



Full text here: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131

Anyone that wants to sell ammunition in MA must be licensed. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 122B:



Full text here: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section122B

If you are asking why the AG claims it is illegal for a mail order company to sell ammunition in MA, it is the AG's opinion that for a company that is out-of-state to sell ammunition in MA, they would have to have a license to sell ammunition from every town in MA. Since that company doesn't have an address in a town in MA, they can't get such a license.

If you are asking where is the law that makes it legal for you to order ammunition from an out-of-state vendor, there is no such law. Nor is there any law that makes it illegal for you to do so (assuming you have an LTC or FID).

So what, exactly, do you want to know? If you are specific about that, then we are more likely to be able to point you to the appropriate law (if there is one).
Click to expand...

My question was about the specific laws concerning the legality of ordering ammo (from the buyer's perspective) online into the state. (with a given that I have an FID, and that the vendor is a legitimate entity - not some guy on Craigslist). If there are in fact no laws prohibiting this, then my question is answered.
 
Al-Jim19 said:
I don't know the specific statute and law but m knowledge is as follows:

go go ahead and try to buy ammo online-you are not doing anything wrong. The problem is on the sellers end. If you find somewhere that will ship it to you, don't talk about it. Lastly, to my knowledge a vendor has never faced legal action for online sales, but the ag has threatened legal action if they did not stop.

Others can chime in as they see fit, perhaps with actual law.
Click to expand...

Not true. The AG's office has run sting operations and then filed lawsuits against those companies. Some paid a fine, most signed cease & desist orders to never ship anything useful into MA ever again. IIRC, Comm2A posted a few links to the documents in question recently.


deezwho said:
"No person shall sell ammunition in the commonwealth unless duly licensed..."
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section122B
Click to expand...

M1911 said:
What, specifically, are you looking for?

If you have an LTC or FID, then you already know that you can purchase ammunition. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 131:


Full text here: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131

Anyone that wants to sell ammunition in MA must be licensed. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 122B:


Full text here: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section122B

If you are asking why the AG claims it is illegal for a mail order company to sell ammunition in MA, it is the AG's opinion that for a company that is out-of-state to sell ammunition in MA, they would have to have a license to sell ammunition from every town in MA. Since that company doesn't have an address in a town in MA, they can't get such a license.

If you are asking where is the law that makes it legal for you to order ammunition from an out-of-state vendor, there is no such law. Nor is there any law that makes it illegal for you to do so (assuming you have an LTC or FID).

So what, exactly, do you want to know? If you are specific about that, then we are more likely to be able to point you to the appropriate law (if there is one).
Click to expand...

What you posted is the law that was specifically written wrt to dealers of ammo.

Now an interesting aside, you are right that the AG claims that the vendor needs a MA Ammo Dealer's License from EACH city/town they ship to in MA. HOWEVER, any MA Dealer who sells at a gun show sells on their SINGLE shop MA Ammo Dealer's License and is NOT required to obtain additional ones from each town where the gun shows are held. Hypocrisy much???



TheOtherDon said:
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be curious as to *where* an online sale takes place, from a legal standpoint. If it occurs where the seller is headquartered, then they're not selling it here, they're just shipping it here.

Merely a thought experiment...
Click to expand...

You are correct, UCC determines that the sale takes place at the location of the seller in the case of phone/Internet orders. However, MA does NOT recognize UCC as valid, just like they don't recognize much of the US Constitution as valid either.
 
LenS said:
Not true. The AG's office has run sting operations and then filed lawsuits against those companies. Some paid a fine, most signed cease & desist orders to never ship anything useful into MA ever again. IIRC, Comm2A posted a few links to the documents.
Click to expand...


I could be wrong, but the vendors in question, paid the fine in order to avoid a lawsuit. As far as I know, none have gone to trial, but it would be interesting to see the outcome of a court case. With a 'crackerjack' lawyer, in Federal Court, they may stand a chance. Sadly it will never happen, and the AG knows this. They'll simply write off MA as a 'non-lucrative' state, anyway.
 
JustOneOfThosePeople said:
My question was about the specific laws concerning the legality of ordering ammo (from the buyer's perspective) online into the state. (with a given that I have an FID, and that the vendor is a legitimate entity - not some guy on Craigslist). If there are in fact no laws prohibiting this, then my question is answered.
Click to expand...

Most laws don't say "you can do X." Instead, most laws say "you can't do Y." So you won't see a law that says "it is legal for a MA resident to order ammunition from an out of state vendor," just as you won't see a law that says "it is legal for a MA resident to order a computer from an out of state vendor."
 
I have a question. It seems to me that in regards to magazine sales in or out of the state the law is very clear. That would mean (to me at least) that at the time the laws were written they law makers had the knowledge and ability to write into the law specifics about sales of ammunition within and outside the state. My question is, if this is true, could the fact that they left out language specifically regarding this as an indication that it indeed is not illegal?
 
TheOtherDon said:
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be curious as to *where* an online sale takes place, from a legal standpoint. If it occurs where the seller is headquartered, then they're not selling it here, they're just shipping it here.

Merely a thought experiment...
Click to expand...

Look up "free on board."

Not that it matters, Marsha doesn't care.
 
Just playing devils advocate here, Is it illegal for a licensed resident to go out of state and make a purchase and drive it back. Is it illegal for same resident to go out of state and ship it back to himself. Is it illegal for same resident to go out of state, make purchase and have the seller ship it back. Is it illegal for same resident to save time, money and fuel to call/go online the out of state seller and repeat the sale.
 
Marshas head would pop if someone called and said they had a million dollar order and was going to pick it up and deliver it to friends here in MA.

Anyone wanna try? I'm down for a Smokey and the Bandit ammo run. [smile]
 
jasons said:
Probably because a lot of new gun owners find this site and have legitimate questions about the F-ed up laws here.
Click to expand...

Yep, or they find the site as a result of a google type search for their question, which is how I found this site a few years back. My search pointed to a thread discussing whatever it was that I was looking for at the time.
 
I've said it before, the AG's office is full of shiza with this one. The only way the sale actually occurs in MA is if the retailer, or the card processing server is in MA. Otherwise, it's just being shipped to MA. This seems like more low-hanging fruit for Comm2A.
 
jasons said:
Why do you continue to repeat this falsehood when you know that at least one individual has been charged, tried, and convicted of violating section 122B?
Click to expand...

I believe this has no bearing on the topic. The distinction being that your case was an in state sale. I do believe that your interpretatio of the law is correct in that no person means exactly that( no person whether commercial or individual) . If you are going to go with the black and white of the law then you must also believe the verbage about within the state. That was his downfall. My point is that it is very clear about magazine sales from outside the state. The fact that it is not clear about ammo sales from outside the state means that it was intentionally left out because it must be legal.
 
The5thDentist said:
I've said it before, the AG's office is full of shiza with this one. The only way the sale actually occurs in MA is if the retailer, or the card processing server is in MA. Otherwise, it's just being shipped to MA. This seems like more low-hanging fruit for Comm2A.
Click to expand...

This does seem like an easy one. I know it is easier said than done and there are logistical issues, money being a big one, but sometimes I feel it would be better to go on the offensive regarding the law. Instead of being reactive and seeing how Martha is going to handle a situation, force her move. Why not send a letter to Martha and flat out tell her that Mr Smith just sold Mr Jones of MA some ammo from out of state. I have read the laws and it does not anywhere state this is breaking the law and there is no case law. HOW DO YOU LIKE THOSE APPLES. If she acts you have an easy case if she does not act then we use that fact against her.
 

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