Keeping a semiautomatic full of ammo

[JimConway]

A lot has been printed about reloading and there is much discussion about the various techniques. Let us discuss some of the ways that you can keep your gun full (fuller). Before we get to the types and techniques, I want to mention how you should acquire the magazine. It does not matter whether the mag is on the shooting bench, in your pocket or in a mag pouch on your waist. Your support hand should grasp the mag so the tip of you index finger is able to touch the tip of the first bullet. There are two benifits of this suggestion. We are all born with the ability to point, quite accurately with our index fingers. When reloading we simply point our index finger at the gun's mag well and the mag will find the right place, even in the dark. Secondly in the dark, the finger touching the first bullet can check if the mag is really full.
Now back to my subject. The types of reloads can be catagorized as follows:
Administrative - This is a no stress event where the gun is loaded for the day before leaving home. Do it any that you want, but be sure to do two things before you holster the gun. Chamber check the gun to ensure that you really do have a round in the chamber. secondly pull down on the mag to ensure that it properly seated in the gun.

Out of Ammo reload - With the slide is loaded back (hopefully), simply insert a fresh mag and release the slide. There is no agreement on the best way to release the slide. The two ways are to depress the slide stop /slide release lever and the other is to pull back on the slide and release it. I said release it not to ride it forward with your hand on the slide. I normally use the second method except when I am shooting a time test where a fraction of a second is important.
Emergency Reload - This is a high stress variation of the " Out of ammo" reload. In this case, with the gun pointed at the BG, acquire a fresh mag and bring it toward the magwell. As the fresh mag gets near the mag well, depress the mag release (The two mags should pass in the air) and insert the new mag. Then release the slide by either method.

Tactical reload or proactive reload - This is a very high stress situation. This is also where all of the disputes over technique occur. Again, there are two techniques to consider. Before we get to the techniques, let me set the stage. You are in a gun fight and you have shot a number of rounds at the BG, but the gun still has some ammo in it. The trainers all say that you should reload during a lull in the action. I am not sure what a "lull" is exactly. Consider a situation where you have shot and hit the BG. He is out of the fight, for now. You have already checked your six and there does not appear to be any more problems. You also know the the BG may have some friends that could have heard the gun fire. You NEED a full gun.
The simplest and fastest technique is taught by Gabe Suarez. In this technique, you remove the partially empty mag and stow it, grab a fresh mag and insert it. The reason for stowing the partially full mag is that you could need those rounds Most of us only carry one spare mag.
In the second technique, you acquire a fresh mag and with your palm facing up below the mag well, drop the partial mag into your palm and secure it between two of your fingers. At this point you have in your support hand the old and new mags, with the new mag indexed along your index finger. Then simply insert the new mag and stow the old mag for possible future use.
This second technique is somewhat difficult for people with small hands or with large mags.

Now TonyD will offer his tjoughts, I hope.
Edited to fix my typing errors. Thanks Len

 

[Nickle]

Jim, I'll add a comment to PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Combat reloads of a semi-auto Battle Rifle MUST be subconcious. You have to be "able to do it in your sleep", or you'll suffer dearly at the moment it is critical.

 

[M1911]

I normally use the second method except when I am shooting a time test where a fraction of a second is important.

I suggest you consider choosing a method a sticking with it. You can go either way (overhand or slide stop), but choose one way.

 

[JimConway]

Nickle
Again I agree with you. You should select only one method and stick with it until such a time that you are presented with a better method that works for you.

 

[BigBill]

Jim, I'll add a comment to PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Combat reloads of a semi-auto Battle Rifle MUST be subconcious. You have to be "able to do it in your sleep", or you'll suffer dearly at the moment it is critical.

Your right its more practice and more practice. And when your good at it practice it in the dark. You should be able to clean it in the dark too.

 

[C-pher]

Now, I was wondering on the way that you should engage the first round after a fresh magazine is loaded when you shot your last round and the slide is back.

Now, while I use the slide stop, I have been thinking about that...and now I try to pull the slide after a fresh magazine is loaded.

Being that I haven't taken any classes as of yet...but I still got to thinking.

If I were to have some sort of failure, I would think that you would want to be used to the method of pulling the slide. This would at least get you used to ejecting a round that might have misloaded, or ramped incorrectly, or stovepiped. But at the same time, if you dropped your magazine and loaded a new one...you would have served two issues.

Ejected the problem round and ramped the new round.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I was thinking.

 

[M1911]

I'll call the two methods 1) overhand and 2) slide stop.

The proponents of the overhand method claim you are less likely to fumble it. Some of them also recommend it because it is the same motion as a tap-rack-bang malfunction clearance.

For guns with silly slide stops that are too small and too hard to find (e.g., Sig and Glock), I think the overhand method certainly has merit.

The proponents of the slide stop method claim that using the slide stop is about 1/2 second faster.

On a gun like an HK USP or 1911 with a real slide stop in the correct place, I've never had a problem hitting the slide stop with my left thumb.

Both ways work. Both ways have their pros and cons. Try them and decide what works for you.

Ayoob teaches both ways and recommends using the slide stop. When I took a class at Sigarms, they taught both ways and recommended using the overhand method. IIRC, Randy Cain taught both ways, recommended using the overhand method but said that he uses the slide stop.

So take your pick.

 

[TonyD]

Jim, I've been looking forward to this since you mentioned to me you were going to post the subject some weeks ago.

My comments:

First, I think your explanation of the position of the index finger on the magazine is excellent. I see a lot folks fumble un-necessarily trying to get the magazine into the gun while only grasping the lower third of the magazine. I also find that orientating my spare magazines (I carry no less than two) with the tip of the bullet facing rearward facilitates the correct grasp.

Anecdote: I was doing some training last weekend with a guy that spent 5 years with Team Six. He would physically pull the spent magazine out with his weak hand during reloading. I counseled him on the exact technique you illustrated above and cut his reload time in half.

The methods of reloading are almost as old and as contraversial as the 9mm vs. .45 arguement. As a fresh young pup on HRT I was taught to never drop an empty magazine, thereby ensuring to never reload an empty weapon. Also, to never pick up and stow dropped magazines. This requires counting the rounds you've fired. That is not a difficult task when you trained as much as we did. I think a lot of what is taught today is geared for civillians and mass instruction of the public with the least amount of thinking.

With that said, I tend to think the average Joe with very little training will probably fire less than six rounds in a real-life encounter, simply, because the bulk of their practice will consist of only firing one round at a time. And, this will, invariably, carry over when it comes time for a real fight. Folks with moderate training, those who attend formal classes or shoot matches, are more likely to shoot to slide-lock and not realize it until they keep pulling the trigger and nothing happens. I see that often when the course of fire is not scripted.

Releasing the slide. Someone suggested to, "...Pick one way and stick with it". I completely disagree with this thought pattern. There are three ways to release the slide from slide-lock and you should be familiar, and comfortable, with all of them. On the typically configuration where the slide release is forward (HK, 1911, etc) the quickest and most proficient way is to operate it with the weak hand thumb. Alternately, is to "sling-shot" the slide with the weak hand, and, finally, is to release the slide with the strong hand thumb. The latter is least preferred because it usually necessitates a change in grip - however slight.

The oxymoron of the "Tactical" reload. Again, I'm going to illustrate a third technique which is the technique I utilize, and, as a result, always cost me a 'penalty' in IDPA. No big deal, I can't help the fact they do it wrong and I won't compromise real training for their benefit. The idea, as Jim pointed out, is to insert a fresh magazine, assuming you still have one, at such time as there is a "lull" in the fight. Most likely this will occur at the end of the fight and the bad guys are either dead or fled.

If you get to this point it means that you have been engaged in a no-shit, real-life gun fight. It means that you have, hopefully, fought your way to at least concealment, if not cover, and there are no incoming rounds. It means that there is no immediate threat and your main concern now is to sweep a 360 degree area and make haste to further remove yourself from the possibility of harm.

This is the point that I differ. You have fought to some type of cover / concealment and you've made yourself the smallest possible target by doing your very best to become one with Mother Earth. Grab your fully loaded magazine with your weak hand from whatever place you carry it, drop the partially loaded magazine from your weapon and allow it to drop to the ground. Reload your weapon as described above, and after, ONLY after your weapon is in battery with a full magazine, pick up the partial that was dropped and find a place to stow it.

The important part to this is the elapsed time of fumbling around with a magazine in your hand trying to find a place to stick it before grabbing a full magazine and inserting into your weapon. During training and matches, such as IDPA, everything is prepared prior to the exercise to have open loose pockets to stow these mag's. In real life you don't have that opportunity and trying to stuff a magazine into the waist band or pocket of a tight pair of jeans while crouched down behind the smallest physical semblance of cover, all the while holding a weapon without a magazine in the well, wondering if three friends of 'Joe-the-bad-guy' is going to rush you, doesn't pass the test of common sense close quarters combat.

The field tested, and, occasionally lethal lesson, was learned when officers were killed with a fist full of brass while reloading their wheel-guns. The principle holds true with a magazine in your hand instead of reloading. The simplest and fastest technique is to drop that mag and reload. Then worry about picking up the partial as time and bad guys permit.

Also, keep in mind, that all of this is accomplished while keeping the firearm, and your eyes, concentrated on your threat area.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Chamber check the gun to ensure that you really do have a round in the chamber.

One CAUTION here:

After doing this, I have had some occasions with some guns where the slide does NOT go 100% into battery, but is back some small fraction of an inch. That could easily result in a FTF at a most inopportune time, so be cautious and make sure that the slide is locked up properly before re-holstering.

 

[TonyD]

I want to also mention that a great deal of information is being presented here by individuals that typically charge money to disseminate such information to students. Many times folks don't appreciate, or believe, the information they are being given unless they pay for it out of their pocket and physically attend a class.

 

[Adam_MA]

I do truly appreciate this forum. It gives a nice place to do just what we are doing here, and the information gives me lots to think about.

Thanks for providing it!

Len,
I found that exact thing with one of my handguns. So now I have made it a normal process when I do a press check on any of my guns, to tap the slide firmly with the heal of my hand to make sure it is in full battery.
Good point to bring up!

Adam

 

[JimConway]

TonyD
Thanks for the reply. I knew that you could not resist. There a couple of points that you brought up that are giving me some trouble.
First, you mention that you carry you spares with the bullets pointing to the rear. When I reach for the spare, my index finger is naturally toward the front of my body and as such the bullets point to the front. I am sure that your technique could be made to work, but would require that you reverse you hand and could take more time. I am not aware of any major trainer that recommends other than having the bullets pointing forward except for the AR series of weapons.
I have had the opportunity to meet and chat with 4 individuals that have been in actual shooting situations. The things that they all agreed upon was that cover was not a factor in their situations. Secondly, they agreed that the time for action precluded any option for using cover, even if they knew where it was. The other thing that they agreed on was that movement had been to vital to their survival. In other words, if you plant your feet to shoot, as you do on the square range, you will not make it.
My final point, as you expected, is the issue of whether to keep or drop the mag when doing a tac reload. While you state that you always have 2 spares, (I always have one and sometimes two), most people do not have any. For them this discussion is a moot point. In reality, the Tac reload is almost an administrative procedure, since no one should take a loaded gun out of the fight for even a fraction of a second if there was any level of perceived threat. Secondly, assuming that your gun does not have a mag disconnect, you would always have at least 1 shot while reloading. To a large degree, I think that our disagreement is situational. Maybe there was a lull and I was behind good cover. In that situation I would want to keep all of the ammo that I could. One thing that I do not see myself doing, during a fight, is searching for the mag that I dropped doing the reload. This just would not happen. In your example, you said the the BG was out of the fight, that you had checked your 6, and I hope that you also checked your body for any unexplained leakage. If all of that is true, then why are you dumping the partial mag? It does not make sense to me. In the above situation, the Tac reload is simply a wise precaution.
My final point is that there is little if any documantation of anyone doing a Tac reload during a lull in the fight. There is some current thinking that there is no reason to even teach Tac reloads, except for games like IDPA and all of the others.
I knew that we would disagree on the Tac reload techniques, but we both have the same goals. The first goa; is to stay alive and secondly to pass on some info that may be of use to others.

 

[Chris]

Tony,

You must have had some real Nazi SO's in IDPA if you got a penalty for the reload you describe.

While dropping the loaded mag to the ground is not a recommended practice, so long as you do not engage before stowing the dropped mag, there should be no penalty. The penalty is for leaving behind ammunition, not failing to complete the reload explicitly as they instruct. In fact, one of the rules is that you can NOT stress the type of reload, but only be sure that the old mag is properly stowed before the shooter reengages targets.

The reason that IDPA does not recomend dropping a used mag is to keep debris from getting into the mag. I've purposely set up stages where the shooter has had to go back to a mag earlier stowed. It would suck to have to slap in a mag that is covered in mud. ( I for one would take the penalty over risking damage to the gun)

One option is to try the Tacload where you grab the new mag, eject the old mag into the same hand, slap in the new mag and then pocket. This method does take practice, but leaves the gun without a mag the least amount of time.

You can bet that I'd remind you about the 'approved' reloads just about every time I see you drop the mag, but I'd never call a penalty on it so long as it is stowed before you shoot.

And you are correct, IDPA is a game where you show up wiht the best possible outfit to win. Some peopel take that to the extreme. That's fine if that is your goal. Maybe the little trophy will impress the bad guy to give you some extra time when you have to do it for real and the outfit you are wearing isn't as optimal.

I never have had, and I never will have an outfit just for IDPA. I come dressed as I would for the weather at hand. About the only compromise I make is that I usually don't compete with IWB or untucked shirt as cover due to reholstering issues after the initial charging of the gun. However, I do a lot of dry practice drawing from that condition away from IDPA.

But then, that's the best part about gun games, everyone can use them for the fun and practice that they want.

 

[M1911]

Releasing the slide. Someone suggested to, "...Pick one way and stick with it". I completely disagree with this thought pattern. There are three ways to release the slide from slide-lock and you should be familiar, and comfortable, with all of them. On the typically configuration where the slide release is forward (HK, 1911, etc) the quickest and most proficient way is to operate it with the weak hand thumb. Alternately, is to "sling-shot" the slide with the weak hand, and, finally, is to release the slide with the strong hand thumb. The latter is least preferred because it usually necessitates a change in grip - however slight.

Tony,

I think we're probably closer in thought than you present here. I use the slide-stop with my weak thumb. It's faster for me and I've never had a problem with it on a gun with a good slide stop.

I agree that people should know how to release the slide all three ways.

That said, I don't think that most people should be thinking about how to release the slide during a gunfight. It should be automatic. They shouldn't be trying to decide between an overhand release or a weak thumb release. They should know how to all three so that they can use it in extremis, but they should train overwhelmingly in one of the three methods.

What I was responding two was this statement from Jim:

I normally use the second method except when I am shooting a time test where a fraction of a second is important.

As the saying goes, train like you fight and fight like you train. A gunfight is probably not the time to debate whether to use your weak thumb or whether to use the overhand method.

I also find that orientating my spare magazines (I carry no less than two) with the tip of the bullet facing rearward facilitates the correct grasp.

Interesting. LFI, Sigarms, and Randy Cain recommend bullets pointing forward. Clearly either can be made to work.

 

[Admin]

I also find that orientating my spare magazines (I carry no less than two) with the tip of the bullet facing rearward facilitates the correct grasp.

Interesting. LFI, Sigarms, and Randy Cain recommend bullets pointing forward. Clearly either can be made to work.

I also carry my spare mag with the bullets pointing to my rear. When I drop my weak hand down to grab it the index finger is already at the front of the mag naturally. At this point when I bring it up to the pistol it naturally is already in the insert position.

ETA: I'll take some pics tonight to show how I engage he new mag and seat it.

 

[DR]

As the fresh mag gets near the mag well, depress the mag release (The two mags should pass in the air) and insert the new mag.

Jim,

Thanks for an informative post. I have a question about this one piece: why not hit the mag release as soon as you realize you're at slide-lock? It seems to me that there's no downside to doing it earlier and a small upside in that it gives you an extra instant to realize if the empty mag failed to drop free.

 

[TonyD]

Jim,

As far as the orientation of my spare magazines, for me, it is much more of a natural move to grab the spare, palm facing inward, and insert it. There is no twisting of the hand or additional movements to have the finger on the tip of the bullet to guide it in. It is simply turning the magazine up. My way requires less time and eliminates the need for horizontal rotation. Try it and you'll see what I mean. This is probably one of those things that doesn't fit everyone. But, now you know of a trainer that does recommend that.

We've touched on the subject of moving and shooting, and the use of cover previously. I think we're of the same mind on that subject. I know cover isn't used many times and I have a theory as to why. This is only a theory. First, most shootings are over very quickly with only a few rounds fired. Secondly, I don't think the use of cover, the search for cover or the theory of fighting your way to cover is not taught or practiced in most cases. Another example of train like you fight.

I'm confused on your point about the tac reload. First, you say you don't see yourself doing it, then, you say it's a wise precaution. The scenario I used was simply expanding on yours. The only thing I differed in was the technique, not the time as when to do it.

I will not own a firearm with a magazine disconnect for the very reason you stated. It is also the reason I stated to never shoot to slide-lock, you'll have a round in the chamber that can be fired.

One thing that I do not see myself doing, during a fight, is searching for the mag that I dropped doing the reload.

As we've both stated, a tac reload is not done during the fight. It's during the "lull" so the above statement is moot. I don't know how to illustrate it any better than I did in my original post so I'll just leave it at that. Again, we don't differ on when to do it, just how.

Keep 'em center mass!
TonyD

 

[C-pher]

It is also the reason I stated to never shoot to slide-lock, you'll have a round in the chamber that can be fired.

While I'm sure that you're training has let you know when you're down to one round.

But for us normal folk, that didn't have the opportunity to have formal military training, I have read that it's not that easy.

I'm knocking you Tony, but only wanting to have a better way of knowing when you're to that point.

But what I've read, that when all hell breaks loose you may not know how many times that you've pulled the trigger. And that most of the time, you will empty all the rounds in your magazine even if you didn't have to do it.

I know that I can practice shooting and counting. But I would think that when I'm fighting for my life, I'm more worried about making a hit of any kind than how many I've shot. I just think that the stress would be too high.

Again, I'll stress that I've never had any type of combat training, so maybe there's drills that will help you learn to count in a high stress situation.

 

[TonyD]

It is also the reason I stated to never shoot to slide-lock, you'll have a round in the chamber that can be fired.

While I'm sure that you're training has let you know when you're down to one round.

But for us normal folk, that didn't have the opportunity to have formal military training, I have read that it's not that easy.

I'm knocking you Tony, but only wanting to have a better way of knowing when you're to that point.

But what I've read, that when all hell breaks loose you may not know how many times that you've pulled the trigger. And that most of the time, you will empty all the rounds in your magazine even if you didn't have to do it.

I know that I can practice shooting and counting. But I would think that when I'm fighting for my life, I'm more worried about making a hit of any kind than how many I've shot. I just think that the stress would be too high.

Again, I'll stress that I've never had any type of combat training, so maybe there's drills that will help you learn to count in a high stress situation.

From my initial post:

The methods of reloading are almost as old and as contraversial as the 9mm vs. .45 arguement. As a fresh young pup on HRT I was taught to never drop an empty magazine, thereby ensuring to never reload an empty weapon. Also, to never pick up and stow dropped magazines. This requires counting the rounds you've fired. That is not a difficult task when you trained as much as we did. I think a lot of what is taught today is geared for civillians and mass instruction of the public with the least amount of thinking.

 

[C-pher]

It is also the reason I stated to never shoot to slide-lock, you'll have a round in the chamber that can be fired.

While I'm sure that you're training has let you know when you're down to one round.

But for us normal folk, that didn't have the opportunity to have formal military training, I have read that it's not that easy.

I'm knocking you Tony, but only wanting to have a better way of knowing when you're to that point.

But what I've read, that when all hell breaks loose you may not know how many times that you've pulled the trigger. And that most of the time, you will empty all the rounds in your magazine even if you didn't have to do it.

I know that I can practice shooting and counting. But I would think that when I'm fighting for my life, I'm more worried about making a hit of any kind than how many I've shot. I just think that the stress would be too high.

Again, I'll stress that I've never had any type of combat training, so maybe there's drills that will help you learn to count in a high stress situation.

From my initial post:

The methods of reloading are almost as old and as contraversial as the 9mm vs. .45 arguement. As a fresh young pup on HRT I was taught to never drop an empty magazine, thereby ensuring to never reload an empty weapon. Also, to never pick up and stow dropped magazines. This requires counting the rounds you've fired. That is not a difficult task when you trained as much as we did. I think a lot of what is taught today is geared for civillians and mass instruction of the public with the least amount of thinking.

Right, that's why I said what I said about us that didn't have military training.

What I was hoping for was ways that maybe will give a better success of remembering how many times you've pulled the trigger during a live fight.

We as civilians don't have the luxury of crawling under razor wire with live fire above to create a high stress situation.

While I understand that it's almost impossible for normal people to do this. I do think that some type of mini-boot camp would be a good thing for people that choose to carry. One that's geared to combat training. Along with sleep deprivation, and repetitive training to get the skills ingrained were your mind will just do them if the time should arise.

 

[TonyD]

C-pher,

I really don't have a good answer for this. It's just how we trained, and we trained a lot. Also, keep in mind, it's a lot easier to control the situation and your actions during offensive engagements with preperation.

I would probably say that it would be more important to concentrate on other areas for defensive encounters. And, if you want to work it into your training sessions, go for it.

 

[JimConway]

DR and Tony D
I will try to answer some of the really good questions that have posed. If I miss responding to any question, please let me know.
DR asked why to mags should pass in the air. The theory is that there would be less time for the BG to react to the fact that your gun is empty.
Consider the time required for the support hand to access a fresh mag while the strong side hand is (rotating the hand gun if necessary) to accessing the mag release. The time are quite close and the spent mag will pass the new mag, normally just below the mag well.
TonyD mentioned that he never lets his get to slide lock. I am sure that this is easy on the square range and in a class situation. I can see how it can be done in an affensive police tean situation with a known number of bad guys. One of the questions that you will be asked after a shooting is how manty rounds you fire. Very people know for sure. If you are ever asked this question, simply say that you shot until the threat was over. The odds are very strong that whatever number that you think that you fired is not the correct number. There is no reason for the police to think that you are lying, when you say 4 shots and there are 6 spent casings on the floor. If I am attacked, I am sure that I will not be counting rounds and will shoot to slide lock. For me it takes less that a second to do an emergency reload. If there is a round in the gun, I will shoot the threat, right then. and reload, if necessary.

 

[TonyD]

TonyD mentioned that he never lets his get to slide lock. I am sure that this is easy on the square range and in a class situation. I can see how it can be done in an affensive police tean situation with a known number of bad guys.

Jim - What I stated was that that's how we trained and is the perfect scenario. Round counting is just comes natural now but doesn't need to be exact.

 

[matt]

bump to top

I was searching for something else and ran across this thread. It's a good one and I thought some of the newer folks might appreciate it.

Matt

 

[Brownie]

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264&highlight=slingshot

We asked members the question of whether they used the slingshot or over the top slide release method, or some other method in a survey.

22 responded with their reasons for that choice.

10 stated over the top
10 stated slingshot
2 stated slide release

Thought the members here might find their thoughts interesting on this subject as well.

Brownie