JPFO thinks Heller is hell for gun owners

[calsdad]

Latest JPFO newsletter is not so cheerful about what the Heller decision will really mean for gun owners in the end:

http://jpfo.org/pdf02/2a-newsletter.pdf

Dear JPFO Member:
The Supreme Court narrowly ruled 5 – 4 in the Heller vs. District of Columbia
case that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to own a handgun for selfdefense
in the home. A limited victory... already turning into a disaster.
A disaster? Here’s why...
For example, The Brady Center for the Prevention of Handgun Violence loves the
vague Heller decision. In their opinion the lower courts will view the decision as a green
light for every “gun control” law imaginable -- except for an outright ban on handguns.
This is because the court decision still allowed that your Second Amendment rights
can be regulated, leaving the door wide open for “reasonable” controls. This loophole has
already fueled rapidly accelerating proposals to...

• Demand surrender of your most personal medical records before allowing
  you to own an firearm.
• Restrict transportation and places of use.
• Classify any firearms with a magazine as a “machinegun”.
• Bans on virtually every of military pattern firearm.

Now I think that the JPFO goes a little overboard sometimes - but - this is worth keeping in mind, especially with Obama as a potential occupant of the White House.

 

[USMA-82]

The JPFO is one organization that refuses to ignore the lessons of history. Unfortunately, not enough people are hearing their warning.

Remember - if you throw a frog in a pot of boiling water, he reacts instantly, jumping out and saving himself. But if you put him in a pot of luke warm water and S-L-O-W-L-Y turn up the heat, he sits there complacently and dies.

Despite the recently Heller decision, the anti's are still continuing to slowly turn up the heat.

KK
Charter Member - JPFO

 

[Joe R.]

I haven't read the whole decision but there was enough holes in it to allow the anti's some wiggle room. I do wish that the 5 Supreme's would have exercised more constitutional authority and made it more clear about what was right/wrong. The problem with the anti's ( and with us too! ) is that they want what they can't have but will take what they can get.

JPFO seems to get it right most of the times, even if the message they put out is " strong " in its delivery. I look at them and see them as the balance for the anti-gun Jewish people that live here. Now granted, there are probably anti's in Israel but for the most part they do what is necessary to survive as a race in a very hostile neighborhood.

I've been to Israel and toured Massada - it's a very humbling place if you know the history of it. I don't for the life of me understand how a person of the Jewish faith could be anti-gun or against self-defense after what happened in WW2.

Joe R.

 

[GrendelKhan]

Remember - if you throw a frog in a pot of boiling water, he reacts instantly, jumping out and saving himself. But if you put him in a pot of luke warm water and S-L-O-W-L-Y turn up the heat, he sits there complacently and dies.

Despite the recently Heller decision, the anti's are still continuing to slowly turn up the heat.

Yep. Reminds me of this site I found a while back:
http://viscog.beckman.uiuc.edu/djs_lab/demos.html
Take a look at the Gradual Changes To Scenes videos. Perception is a fuzzy thing...

 

[Nickle]

THe true problem with Heller was the use of "reasonable restrictions" without defining what was reasonable.

Brady claims that opens up a lot. I think they really know it doesn't.

Remember, it's not in Brady's best interests to admit a defeat. That has never been their way, as it isn't the way of any Socialist to admit defeat. They spin everything, to make it look good. Remember, they are really a fund raising organization, designed to bilk money from the citizens, so they can enslave them.

Reminds me of a story my father used to tell.

The Soviet Union and the US had a sports competition. The US won.

The Soviet headline?

USSR finishes second, the US, next to last.

It's all how you spin it.

 

[doobie]

USSR finishes second, the US, next to last.

I tried that with a girl friend I was dating. I told her she was next to last person I loved. She wasn't to happy with that. It was her and my mother! I guess I didn't spin that right.

 

[Len-2A Training]

JPFO seems to get it right most of the times, even if the message they put out is " strong " in its delivery. I look at them and see them as the balance for the anti-gun Jewish people that live here. Now granted, there are probably anti's in Israel but for the most part they do what is necessary to survive as a race in a very hostile neighborhood.

I've been to Israel and toured Masada - it's a very humbling place if you know the history of it. I don't for the life of me understand how a person of the Jewish faith could be anti-gun or against self-defense after what happened in WW2.

Joe R.

In both trips to Israel, I found that those that I spoke with had no interest in firearms. Firearms and military service are looked upon as necessary "tools" to ensure that they aren't annihilated and not something that they get excited about (nor do they hate either . . . they just see them as necessary for survival).

Like you, I've been on Masada. In fact there was a scramble of fighter jets overhead as we were up there (1989).

American Jews have assimilated too readily into the US, and the mentality of expecting others to defend them in all cases. As an American Jew I am aghast at that mentality, but none of our Jewish relatives/friends (exception those Jewish folks here on NES) would ever lift a finger to defend themselves and almost to a man/woman they wish that all guns were banned and genuinely believe that it would solve all the crime problems.

 

[drgrant]

I don't think it opens a gate for anything, frankly.

One thing that JPFO is ignoring is that even without heller, the antis were doing the same damned things. Anti gunners do not care if their laws violate the constitution, they could basically care less one way or the other.

Heller may not have turned out to be entirely what we wanted it to be, but it was a lot better than nothing. Even if the legal benefits are minimal, it's still a huge political middle finger to the anti gun crowd- a lot of what was said in the decision completely invalidates a lot of the mantras they've been chanting for so many years- eg, that the 2nd amendment is about militia, etc, etc.

IMO if there was a bigger margin, instead of 5-4, we'd have a lot more
benefits, but it is what it is.

-Mike

 

[dwarven1]

LenS, Joe R - you guys are focusing on the wrong place. Masada is an interesting place to visit, but the presentation, from what I remember, was pretty dry, and it was tough to see how it could apply to you.

The Yad Vashem, OTOH... THAT place will make chills run up and down your spine. I came away from there with two words burning in my 15 year old brain:

Never again!​

.

 

[BOBKATT]

Personally, I think SCOTUS can take a walk. Shall not be infringed means absolutely what it sounds like. I have a right to keep and bear arms. And if any of these restrictions infringe upon that right to keep and bear arms, it is unconstitutional and invalid. That's as plain as day to see.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ross, I agreet that Yad Vashem is a much more potent reminder.

 

[KMaurer]

I was a member of JPFO for a long time, but I think that Zelman's gone quite a bit overboard in recent years. Heller didn't define exactly what sort of restrictions might be allowed for the simple reason that this wasn't an issue before the court. They ruled that the existing restrictions in DC were beyond anything that might be allowed. That's what the court does: it rules on the case at hand rather than sets broad policy limits for legislatures. When one gets past the actual ruling and reads the majority opinion, Scalia makes it pretty clear that the sort of unlimited restrictions and regulations that the Brady moonbats salivate over and JPFO warns against (both, of course, for the same purpose, namely to get people to give them more money) would be totally beyond what the majority would allow. The opinion clearly rejects Bryer's "rational basis" test and states unequivocally that the rights protected by the Second Amendment are entitled to the same level of scrutiny accorded to other enumerated rights, such as the prohibition against double jeopardy.

You get more out of visiting Masada if you climb to the top, rather than just ride the tram. Both that and Yad Vashem are excellent reminders, but what burned it into me was standing on Temple Mount when the sirens went off on Yom Ha'Shoa. It's not something from "then", but today and every day.

Ken

 

[Nickle]

When one gets past the actual ruling and reads the majority opinion, Scalia makes it pretty clear that the sort of unlimited restrictions and regulations that the Brady moonbats salivate over and JPFO warns against (both, of course, for the same purpose, namely to get people to give them more money) would be totally beyond what the majority would allow.

Folks, if you've taken the time to read the decision, and didn't know this, read it again.

My take on the short version of "reasonable restrictions"?

About the same as current Federal Law is right now. Maybe even a little less than now.

That is:

Possession allowed

18/21 age restriction

 

[Nickle]

When one gets past the actual ruling and reads the majority opinion, Scalia makes it pretty clear that the sort of unlimited restrictions and regulations that the Brady moonbats salivate over and JPFO warns against (both, of course, for the same purpose, namely to get people to give them more money) would be totally beyond what the majority would allow.

If you haven't read the decision for yourself, do so.

Pay the most attention to Scalia's and Robert's comments.

They made it pretty clear what they consider "reasonable".

The short version?

Pretty much the current status quo, Federally speaking.

AWB? Not likely.

They did concede that DC can have a Shall Issue type license system.

Brady and JPFO are fear mongering. I really don't blame JPFO for it, as many Americans are going to go back to sleep now, since they figure they won the battle to keep their rights.

It is far from over.

And, like Ken said, they didn't judge it broadly. They judged what they were asked to judge, which is a breath of fresh air. Yes, a broad judgement on this could have been good, but the concept isn't a sound one. Broad judgements have worked against us more than for us.

 

[USMA-82]

You get more out of visiting Masada if you climb to the top, rather than just ride the tram. Both that and Yad Vashem are excellent reminders...Ken

When I was stationed in Aschaffenburg, Germany, I set up a trip for anyone who wanted to go to the Dachau Concentration Camp Memorial Site. Suffice it to say, you only need to go once.

Here's a link:

http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.html

 

[Pilgrim]

When I was stationed in Aschaffenburg, Germany, I set up a trip for anyone who wanted to go to the Dachau Concentration Camp Memorial Site. Suffice it to say, you only need to go once.

Here's a link:

http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.html

yup, I went there in 1970. You're never the same after you've been there.

 

[jdubois]

Remember - if you throw a frog in a pot of boiling water, he reacts instantly, jumping out and saving himself. But if you put him in a pot of luke warm water and S-L-O-W-L-Y turn up the heat, he sits there complacently and dies.

Nah, frogs are smarter that that. People on the other hand...

 

[USMA-82]

Well, obviously, heating the pot at the rate of "2 degrees Fahrenheit per minute" is WAY too fast. I demand a new experimental frog heating.....

 

[jdubois]

I demand a new experimental frog heating.....

 

[sig shooter]

i JPFO is not fear mongering at all, look at the timeline on gun control and you will see that all the countrys that have licensed the ownership of firearms have banned them and as a result the countrys citzens became subjects to there dictators. IMO i think that the ATF,FBI and wellfair should be abolished because we have already gave the government too much power and when the governmet has too much power monsters like hitler are a result.


link to death gun control chart: http://jpfo.net/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#dgc

 

[Jose]

I don't think it opens a gate for anything, frankly.

One thing that JPFO is ignoring is that even without heller, the antis were doing the same damned things. Anti gunners do not care if their laws violate the constitution, they could basically care less one way or the other.

Heller may not have turned out to be entirely what we wanted it to be, but it was a lot better than nothing. Even if the legal benefits are minimal, it's still a huge political middle finger to the anti gun crowd- a lot of what was said in the decision completely invalidates a lot of the mantras they've been chanting for so many years- eg, that the 2nd amendment is about militia, etc, etc.

IMO if there was a bigger margin, instead of 5-4, we'd have a lot more
benefits, but it is what it is.

-Mike

+1

Alarmist bullshit from a fringe group that has zero pull in the national debate.

 

[highlander]

i JPFO is not fear mongering at all, look at the timeline on gun control and you will see that all the countrys that have licensed the ownership of firearms have banned them and as a result the countrys citzens became subjects to there dictators. IMO i think that the ATF,FBI and wellfair should be abolished because we have already gave the government too much power and when the governmet has too much power monsters like hitler are a result.


link to death gun control chart: http://jpfo.net/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#dgc

I am not as learned as most here,i barely got out of high school,but I will throw my.02 here. As I recall most countries had a monarchy of some type
and the "rights" of the unwashed were at the whim of his or her Majesty.
The rulers had wealth and armies to "educate" the masses and if you didn't like the way things run most likely you'd get a shoulder length hair cut.
Our founding fathers were smart enough to recognize this short coming and as a result we have the system we have now,granted in its current state not perfect but it beats the hell out of anywhere else. We have rights that are spelled out by the bill of rights and for the most part they can't be arbitrarily
taken away. I for one will take Heller as is for it gets our foot in the door in reclaiming what is our right.Who would have thought that with this decision
several towns/cities that banned handguns just said "oh we better change the law' cause a court battle is going to cost us a bundle and there's a high likely hood we'll loose. Done ranting I think I will go lie down now

 

[KMaurer]

i JPFO is not fear mongering at all, look at the timeline on gun control and you will see that all the countrys that have licensed the ownership of firearms have banned them and as a result the countrys citzens became subjects to there dictators. IMO i think that the ATF,FBI and wellfair should be abolished because we have already gave the government too much power and when the governmet has too much power monsters like hitler are a result.


link to death gun control chart: http://jpfo.net/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#dgc

So tell me about the horrible experiences of those countries where possession of firearms has been ruled to be an individual right. After all, that, not licensing is what Aaron is warning us about this time.

Ken

 

[sig shooter]

So tell me about the horrible experiences of those countries where possession of firearms has been ruled to be an individual right. After all, that, not licensing is what Aaron is warning us about this time.

Ken

you bring up a important point, we going to need another supream court ruling to make licensure of firearms unconstutional.

 

[wahsben]

+1

Alarmist bullshit from a fringe group that has zero pull in the national debate.

They are a fringe group because too many gun owners do not know the meaning of shall not be infringed.

As long as there are gun owners that continue to compromise, gun owners will continue to be compromised.