Instructor Killed in AZ by 9 year old firing an Uzi

[drgrant]

Full ****ing retard. Poor girl. Scarred for life.

What really blows about this is, is that in addition to the obvious emotional trauma, is That she'll probably have negative feelings about firearms for the rest of her life, we'll have another brady/VPC fume breather 20 years from now braying about how evil guns are.

-Mike

 

[MGnoob]

once again you are right on.. in my car example there would be less of a chance of a criminal procicution because the main offender is dead, and it would be even hard to go after the parents, than in the case of the girl and uzi.

"because all it would do is make them
look bad, they'd be treated as a farce in the legal community and in the public"

Ya that just puts on display the failure of our "legal" justice system....what does any of that have to do with the law.

"No wrong, they won't do it because from a legal standpoint it's in the realm of "completely ****ing stupid."

a "completely ****ing stupid." Prosecution would fit nicely with a "completely ****ing stupid." Incident, i think the parents hold more moral accountability than the business and the instructor has already paid his pound of flesh. Unless the ffl or instructor suggested the uzi... in which case they would be more morally responsible.

What do you guys think? no new laws but the FFLs adopt a policy of 12-16 for the limit, with at-least 4 hands on all sub machine guns.. and all rifles must be laying down or turret mounted with "stops' to prevent someone spraying bystanders. 18+ the draft age anything goes with proper instruction

 

[drgrant]

once again you are right on.. in my car example there would be less of a chance of a criminal procicution because the main offender is dead, and it would be even hard to go after the parents, than in the case of the girl and uzi.

"because all it would do is make them
look bad, they'd be treated as a farce in the legal community and in the public"

Ya that just puts on display the failure of our "legal" justice system....what does any of that have to do with the law.

Criminal Prosecution generally dictates that there is a malicious act on the part of the offender. Something which is purely an accident doesn't have that component. That's the part that you are clearly not understanding.

i think the parents hold more moral accountability than the business and the instructor has already paid his pound of flesh.

That's where we disagree. Frankly I think this viewpoint is mind numbing insanity. The business furnished the machinegun and presented themselves as a source of authority/qualification. Further, they created the entire scenario. Nobody held a gun to their head and forced them to rent an MG to some family that wanted their 9 year old to shoot it. There is also a nostrum of deference to authority; the parents and the child followed this guys directions. Up until the point where the guy told her to pull the trigger, the instructor had COMPLETE control of the situation.... so by virtue of that, he owns it, all of it.

I might be inclined to agree with you if, say, "joe moron" brought his own, privately owned mini uzi to the range and gave it to his kid who never shot it before, and then the kid killed someone else at the range with it. That isn't what happened here and you know it.

What do you guys think? no new laws but the FFLs adopt a policy of 12-16 for the limit, with at-least 4 hands on all sub machine guns.. and all rifles must be laying down or turret mounted with "stops' to prevent someone spraying bystanders. 18+ the draft age anything goes with proper instruction

I think pay range owners would do well to simply not go full retard. Not to mention, there are several common machine guns which should never be offered for rent to people lacking experience, and the mini and micro uzis are certainly in this class.

-Mike

 

[MGnoob]

I knew i should have stayed clear of this thread, and after the advise of if you where having a good day stay away from the article and comments...after seeing it on the news and then reading the article and comments, i just couldn't. It's like something you don't want to see but just can't look away.
I'm just heated because this same thing happened locally, and now i can't shoot at that range or most of the surrounding ranges..

i read this a day or 2 after i finally got to shoot my MG after what felt like a 3 year wait.i just sent my 9mm bolt to m60joe to be ramped.. i'd love the cycle rate of that uzi..with the 16" barrel i don't see anyone getting shot in the face...i guess i have little to worry about i won't be letting any 7yr olds shoot it even in .22lr configuration......

 

[MGnoob]

Criminal Prosecution generally dictates that there is a malicious act on the part of the offender. Something which is purely an accident doesn't have that component. That's the part that you are clearly not understanding.



That's where we disagree. Frankly I think this viewpoint is mind numbing insanity. The business furnished the machinegun and presented themselves as a source of authority/qualification. Further, they created the entire scenario. Nobody held a gun to their head and forced them to rent an MG to some family that wanted their 9 year old to shoot it. There is also a nostrum of deference to authority; the parents and the child followed this guys directions. Up until the point where the guy told her to pull the trigger, the instructor had COMPLETE control of the situation.... so by virtue of that, he owns it, all of it.

I might be inclined to agree with you if, say, "joe moron" brought his own, privately owned mini uzi to the range and gave it to his kid who never shot it before, and then the kid killed someone else at the range with it. That isn't what happened here and you know it.



I think pay range owners would do well to simply not go full retard. Not to mention, there are several common machine guns which should never be offered for rent to people lacking experience, and the mini and micro uzis are certainly in this class.

-Mike

we can agree to disagree.. i don't think the ffl is solely liable but that is how it will pan out... the deceased's family does have a case against both depending on the terms of employment they may have a better legal case agiast the child's parents. but like your saying being a 7yr old makes it hard.

i think your right on with this part:
I might be inclined to agree with you if, say, "joe moron" brought his own, privately owned mini uzi to the range and gave it to his kid who never shot it before, and then the kid killed someone else at the range with it.

I think pay range owners would do well to simply not go full retard. Not to mention, there are several common machine guns which should never be offered for rent to people lacking experience, and the mini and micro uzis are certainly in this class.

 

[MGnoob]

I love the term "full retard" as used in the movie tropic thunder.
like forrest gump vs simple jack

 

[MGnoob]

after further thought if this was a member only range and one member shot another member there wouldn't be a good civil case due to the waivers of liability
and criminal charges would depend on the state it happened in.. and even then it would be the same as the case with the girl and the uzi...

 

[92G]

I have no sympathy for the instructor. He shouldn't have let the girl shoot the gun unless he was holding it.

YUP.
it's also why God invented the cricket.

 

[MGnoob]

YUP.
it's also why God invented the cricket.

I always though on the 3rd day Jesus created the Remington bolt action rifle....
Sympathy does little for anyone, it's like good intentions.

I'm sure all parties involved will reflect on the event for life
"gun safety groups" will dance on the grave, then try to convince everyone that all scary black rifle-assault weapons are actually full auto.

 

[cekim]

I always though on the 3rd day Jesus created the Remington bolt action rifle....
Sympathy does little for anyone, it's like good intentions.

I'm sure all parties involved will reflect on the event for life
"gun safety groups" will dance on the grave, then try to convince everyone that all scary black rifle-assault weapons are actually full auto.

and adults will recognize that stupidity sometimes leads to tragedy and move on without developing irrational fears of things that fire more than one bullet per trigger pull because they understand that one is all it takes if it ends up in the wrong place.

 

[MGnoob]

+1
The best case anti gun people have is "we registered all machine guns and look no one came and took them from anybody"
the obvious joke being there definitely isn't a lack of unregistered FA weapons...there just not of much use without extensive training and vast quantities of ammo, not the 100-1000 some people think no one needs.also the legal ramifications are more serious then the crime they would be planned to use in..Unless your on a suicide mission, and even then there would be more of these supposed times to take the shooter down hand to hand whilst they are reloading...with our plea bargain system you could rape and murder a 6yr old boy and do less time then having a simple rifle in your home.

alright enough play time my lawn needs mowing......

 

[jefftk]

Guess that gun can be tricky to shoot. If you fast forward to 4:30 this guy who appears to be an experienced shooter almost lost control of the mini UZI. He blames it on the stock.

As he says, and which you can actually see, the stock does indeed appear to start to fold inwards. Looked like he was able to maintain control of it despite the stock collapsing.

 

[MGnoob]

After rereading myself, i have decided i am being a dick.
I just thought if they criminally prosecuted regardless of the results. Stupid people, wouldn't take their stupid kids, to stupid gun ranges , choose a stupid firearm and stupid things happen. Without needing 1 more law.

 

[cekim]

After rereading myself, i have decided i am being a dick.
I just thought if they criminally prosecuted regardless of the results. Stupid people, wouldn't take their stupid kids, to stupid gun ranges , choose a stupid firearm and stupid things happen. Without needing 1 more law.

The first step is realizing you've been programmed...

This is what everyone in America needs to do... Step back and realize that laws don't solve problems. The provide a means of replacing vigilante justice for crimes of malice and in the case of tort, they provide a means of suing for compensation for someone else's negligence.

However, all of the laws required to perform those two functions were written 100's of years ago. It is exceedingly rare that a new law is required to accomplish this rather than just not having an agenda driven judge legislating from the bench requiring a new law to overturn their nonsense.

We need to have entire legislative sessions consumed with taking laws off the books at this point rather than adding new ones. THAT would be "progress".

 

[MGnoob]

The first step is realizing you've been programmed...

This is what everyone in America needs to do... Step back and realize that laws don't solve problems. The provide a means of replacing vigilante justice for crimes of malice and in the case of tort, they provide a means of suing for compensation for someone else's negligence.

However, all of the laws required to perform those two functions were written 100's of years ago. It is exceedingly rare that a new law is required to accomplish this rather than just not having an agenda driven judge legislating from the bench requiring a new law to overturn their nonsense.

We need to have entire legislative sessions consumed with taking laws off the books at this point rather than adding new ones. THAT would be "progress".

i'm not advocating, making law from the bench.The only agenda i'm advocating for is somewhere in the layers of laws we have murder/manslaughter and all the deg. and lesser charges, this fits in.....i don't know where, but there are serious charges that could be used with a strait face. I believe there was some disagreement but some of these charges do not require intent or malice. and with a serious prosecutor asking hard question conviction would be possible under the law.
Q. So you thought it would be safe to let your 7rd child shoot an uzi?
A. Well we went to the professionals.
q. Didn't you think it was dangerous to let you 7rd daughter shoot a sub-machine gun?
A.Well we went to the professionals.
Q.Did you research the ffl and the specific firearm chosen to be used by a 7 year old girl?
A. Well we went to the professionals. ( or some other irreverent answer.
Q.did you know that if you type "kid shoots uzi", there is a young man 8yrs old taken from us by negligence?
a. I didn't know we went to professionals
q So you didn't take 15 secs.... to google anything relevant to safety of your 7rd daughter? Where you being negligent?

I could go on and on...A good prosecutor would take the weakness of his case....the 7yr old girl, turn it around and drive it like a mack-truck into the defense, don't even have the child there and charge the parents and display their foolishness for all to see.
I do concede the FFL would have a hard time with this as-well, and a good defense attorney could help both parties

 

[noxin]

There is no law written by men that prevents (or can stop) people from being stupid.

The fact that you want to criminally prosecute someone for this, despite the clear lack of mal intent, is pretty astounding. But, again, there's no law to stop you from spouting stupid shit on a forum.

It was an accident. Everyone involved has paid or will be paying for the rest of their lives. No one benefited. This is a perfect example of leaving a bad situation alone and not make it harder.

 

[AlKatori]

+1
The best case anti gun people have is "we registered all machine guns and look no one came and took them from anybody"
the obvious joke being there definitely isn't a lack of unregistered FA weapons...there just not of much use without extensive training and vast quantities of ammo, not the 100-1000 some people think no one needs.also the legal ramifications are more serious then the crime they would be planned to use in..Unless your on a suicide mission, and even then there would be more of these supposed times to take the shooter down hand to hand whilst they are reloading...with our plea bargain system you could rape and murder a 6yr old boy and do less time then having a simple rifle in your home.

alright enough play time my lawn needs mowing......

The best case we have against registration is the NFA and the 1986 Hughes amendment. They can say no one took anyone's machine gun away through registration, but we can say that they took away the ability for an "Average American" to own a Full-Auto firearm and left them with no legal process to own one apart from being "rich".

 

[MikeRizz]

Sad to see this. Maybe it is just me but I am not letting my 9 years old anywhere near that weapon! Common sense applies. Do not misunderstand, my daughter has been shooting since she was 11, but not a full auto UZI. I am sure the left will have a field day with this.

 

[MGnoob]

The best case we have against registration is the NFA and the 1986 Hughes amendment. They can say no one took anyone's machine gun away through registration, but we can say that they took away the ability for an "Average American" to own a Full-Auto firearm and left them with no legal process to own one apart from being "rich".

I agree with you so much, i would gladly see my DIAS go back to being worth $20+200 tax or better yet $20 no tax, and lose all the money i spent on it.
I'd have my m60, m203 mini-gun, and a couple rpgs......

That micro-uzi must be pretty bad-ass to shoot, that guy in the video was spackling that target, if it was a slow-fire mac that guy might not be dead..although those small sub-machines-guns should be treated with even more respect then any other fire-arm, not that there are degrees of safety but the uzi is getting a bad track record for rentals..........

 

[MGnoob]

There is no law written by men that prevents (or can stop) people from being stupid.

The fact that you want to criminally prosecute someone for this, despite the clear lack of mal intent, is pretty astounding. But, again, there's no law to stop you from spouting stupid shit on a forum.

It was an accident. Everyone involved has paid or will be paying for the rest of their lives. No one benefited. This is a perfect example of leaving a bad situation alone and not make it harder.

i thinks it's pretty astounding you can say that it's astounding i want someone to be prosecuted who had a clear lack of mal intent.I'm not the one who agrees with or wrote laws that make it that way. But are we all bound by the law or not?.......although taking my stance to the extreme does seem over the top...by the line of reasoning i've been using(if you can call it that) I should be standing here saying in the westfield incident they should have prosecuted the parents of the dead child.Even I would say, whats the point.

Everyone happy now? i'm a hypocrite who has torn apart his own "Straw-man".

 

[cekim]

i'm not advocating, making law from the bench.The only agenda i'm advocating for is somewhere in the layers of laws we have murder/manslaughter and all the deg. and lesser charges, this fits in.....i don't know where, but there are serious charges that could be used with a strait face. I believe there was some disagreement but some of these charges do not require intent or malice. and with a serious prosecutor asking hard question conviction would be possible under the law.

I am totally lost in your line of thought here... The only person who had any real responsibility (gross/reckless disregard) was the instructor (who had no malice) and he's dead.

The parents could be said to have reasonably relied on the expertise of the instructor.

Despite what antis will say it is _possible_ for any child with the strength to pull a trigger to be safely assisted, but it requires more than was done in that video.

So, who are you prosecuting now?

 

[MensetFAL]

There is no law written by men that prevents (or can stop) people from being stupid.

The fact that you want to criminally prosecute someone for this, despite the clear lack of mal intent, is pretty astounding. But, again, there's no law to stop you from spouting stupid shit on a forum.

Nope, laws cannot prevent action but they can deter stupid shit, like a 9-year-old smoking. There are laws against negligence, "mal intent" being moot, that result in injury to others - car accident deaths being a common example. It's usually called manslaughter or 2nd degree murder without "mal intent". "intent" invokes 1st degree murder, which can carry a death sentence in some states. Why should negligence with firearms be any different? The underlying question is whether or not there was negligence in this case. Hard to argue negligence - parental consent, instructor supervision, and a past history without incident. IMO, profoundly stupid by all parties but hard to prove "negligence" in a court room.

 

[MGnoob]

I am totally lost in your line of thought here... The only person who had any real responsibility (gross/reckless disregard) was the instructor (who had no malice) and he's dead.

The parents could be said to have reasonably relied on the expertise of the instructor.

Despite what antis will say it is _possible_ for any child with the strength to pull a trigger to be safely assisted, but it requires more than was done in that video.

So, who are you prosecuting now?

Probably time to start prosecuting myself...i'm already covered by some of the "homestead" protections, i'm going to get out tomorrow and work on fileing the paperwork to increase my protection to 500,000. I don't recall if when i signed my mortgage documents if i just signed the notice/wavier and never followed up on it or if i did file the homestead.Also the law may have been modified since...
i'm more worried some neighbors will hear me shooting and claim i hit there house, or cause some injury or damage without it really even happening or someone else causing damaged and them just blaming it on me.

i guess there is always the chance someone will walk onto the end of a range, regardless of signage... i've also see video on youtube of stupid/nosy neighbor sneaking up on a range to photograph some father allegedly shooting full auto with his even younger daughter.....i mean this guy trespassed to get the video. and was lurking in the woods to the side of the berm while live fire was going on....this guy was just asking to get accidentally shot.. it would be hard to call the shooter negligent when the shootee was behaving in such a manner.

Good night guys/gals.

*EDIT*
I did it again merging criminal and civil law.........

 

[KodiakFan24]

i shot a MP5 at PSA last week full auto and I could feel how easy it would be to have that get away from me. can't imagine how uncontrollable that would be for a 9 y.o.

Sad all around.

 

[Artifact]

Even the suggestion that one can remove the fact that she was 7, judge the remaining facts then apply them back to a 7 year old should get you a nice vacation from NES (even without looking to your initial post in the thread quoted below).

Using your logic, every toddler should go to jail for grabbing another toddler's toy... or hitting another toddler... or even screaming at another toddler.

You, sir, won the internet for today.



I had the hardest time refraining from neg repping you till your rep goes negative. I am shocked people I respect even replied to your obvious trolling.

He's not trolling, he's entitled to his opinion just like the rest of us. You disagree? Fine, voice your disagreement and move on.

This was a sad event all around, a death and most likely a traumatized for life young girl. Even if she's not traumatized she will undergo treatment of some sort (mental, medical) making things worse.

Don't know the layout of the range and how many people where behind the girl and the "instructor" but it seems that he may have acted as a backstop after the burst. If he was behind the girl, her swiveled movement could have had a more gravely impact allowing her to possibly make a 180degree turn behind her while pressing the trigger.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

I swear some of you are ****ing brain damaged.

He's not trolling, he's entitled to his opinion just like the rest of us. You disagree? Fine, voice your disagreement and move on.

This was a sad event all around, a death and most likely a traumatized for life young girl. Even if she's not traumatized she will undergo treatment of some sort (mental, medical) making things worse.

Don't know the layout of the range and how many people where behind the girl and the "instructor" but it seems that he may have acted as a backstop after the burst. If he was behind the girl, her swiveled movement could have had a more gravely impact allowing her to possibly make a 180degree turn behind her while pressing the trigger.

+1

 

[rcwhat]

http://www.barstoolsports.com/m/nyc...y-shoot-and-kills-her-instructor-with-an-uzi/
Not sure if this was posted but....very sad

 

[GottaGetShooting]

Ditto!! I even have video to prove it. And quite honestly I was HAPPY to have that hand on my shoulder (and of course the opportunity to shoot some fun FA guns!!

i'm 38 years old, 230LBs and a former army machine gunner....

when i go to Monadnock to the car shoots and whatnot and go over to the NFA section, whoever owns the particular firearm i'm firing, either has a hand on my shoulder or hovering over it....

i'm glad the "instructor" was the only one killed in this scenario and not that little girl.....

 

[Machines]

I fail to see how this seemed like a good idea to either the instructor or the parents. At least one of those people should have realized a compact machine pistol is nearly impossible for a tiny little girl to control, especially since the exact same thing happened a couple years ago and was in the news for weeks. What happened was like sticking a kid who'd never driven a car into the seat of a 500hp Cobra replica and saying "now hit the gas and let the clutch out."

If you want to give a kid a machine gun experience, have them fire something off a tripod that can't get away from them. Or like that Cambodian tourist range where an AK-47 is welded to the shooting bench.

I remember when I went shooting with a 5'2" girlfriend a few years ago. I just had my 9mm Sig carry pistol, and I'm a big strong guy who could easily shoot it, but when I asked her if she wanted to try it she said no since was watching the apparent recoil . Even she decided she wanted to learn with a .22.

 

[30Mauser]

I fail to see how this seemed like a good idea to either the instructor or the parents. At least one of those people should have realized a compact machine pistol is nearly impossible for a tiny little girl to control, especially since the exact same thing happened a couple years ago and was in the news for weeks. What happened was like sticking a kid who'd never driven a car into the seat of a 500hp Cobra replica and saying "now hit the gas and let the clutch out."

If you want to give a kid a machine gun experience, have them fire something off a tripod that can't get away from them. Or like that Cambodian tourist range where an AK-47 is welded to the shooting bench.

I remember when I went shooting with a 5'2" girlfriend a few years ago. I just had my 9mm Sig carry pistol, and I'm a big strong guy who could easily shoot it, but when I asked her if she wanted to try it she said no since was watching the apparent recoil . Even she decided she wanted to learn with a .22.

This. The analogy I like to share, particularly with the anti-gun crowd, is that this was like handing a running chainsaw to that girl and telling her to cut down the tree you're leaning against.

Feel free to use that... No charge.