Incedent got me thinking.....

offcamber

offcamber

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I am a trustee at a local social club, the other night I was involved in a altercation with a member who is routinely trouble. Although no physical violence happened insults and threats were hurled my way. Now this individual in about twice my size and could easily kick my ass...luckily other members intervened before anything really happened or the PD was called.

I don't carry in the club due to the house rules (although I may break that now since I don't drink). My question is if someone one is threatening me with physical violence am I justified for puling my firearm and warning them off and ultimately firing on them should they not back down?

I know in MA and other states I would need to be beating with in an inch of my life before I could shoot but luckily I live in NH.

I do feel that if I run into this person elsewhere the potential for violence is high.

Thanks
 
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You are on thin ice considering whether to draw or not and that's not where you want to be. I agree with the posts above. Don't walk on thin ice. If you draw, you better be ready and justified to pull the trigger.
 
The question that needs to be answered, if and when you end up in court for murder, is "Did you feel that you were facing imminent death, or serious bodily injury?" If you can prove to a jury of your peers that you were, then it's justified. If not, then you're probably facing a 20 year sentence for manslaughter. There is no finite answer. It will always depend upon the totality of the circumstances.
 
cricco said:
The question that needs to be answered, if and when you end up in court for murder, is "Did you feel that you were facing imminent death, or serious bodily injury?" If you can prove to a jury of your peers that you were, then it's justified. If not, then you're probably facing a 20 year sentence for manslaughter. There is no finite answer. It will always depend upon the totality of the circumstances.
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Well that's more to my question I guess....

Thanks
 
Depends on the situation but remember you have a duty to retreat. So the responding cops, judge and jury are all going to ask you why you just didn't walk out the door, why you didn't call the police, why everyone else in the room sat quietly while you felt the need to pull out your gun? If you can't answer these questions then you'll have a serious problem. Simply put, don't draw in public if you don't have a reason to use it.
 
offcamber said:
I don't carry in the club due to the house rules (although I may break that now since I don't drink). My question is if someone one is threatening me with physical violence am I justified for puling my firearm and warning them off and ultimately firing on them should they not back down?
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In general, you are only justified in drawing your gun if you, or another innocent, is in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury. A drunk idiot mouthing off is unlikely to justify drawing your gun.

It is my understanding that it can be difficult at times to convince a judge or jury that deadly force was needed when it is a 1-on-1 fight between two adult males when the attacker is unarmed. Yes, there is the theory of disparity of force and that will likely work when you have an 18-year-old male against an elderly man. But you really don't want to end up in court spending your life savings trying to stay out of mail.

If this fellow has been a problem, then as a trustee in your club you need to get this fellow thrown out of the club. Furthermore, I suggest that you really should have called the police. You want a public record that this guy has been violent.
 
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I understand it all depends on situation.In a room full of people I wouldn't draw unless someone else did first. I'm talking about a situation where no one else is around. Keep in mind this isn't MA.... My question was under NH laws, that's why this is posted in the NH law section. I guess retreat is the better option if available.
 
cricco said:
The question that needs to be answered, if and when you end up in court for murder, is "Did you feel that you were facing imminent death, or serious bodily injury?" If you can prove to a jury of your peers that you were, then it's justified. If not, then you're probably facing a 20 year sentence for manslaughter. There is no finite answer. It will always depend upon the totality of the circumstances.
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+1 Another factor to be considered would be whether or not there are other people at the scene. On the one hand other folks might prove to be valuable witnesses if he says something like 'I'm going to kill you'. On the other hand it could be argued that the others would/could intervene and prevent any grave harm or death.

ETA Avoiding the confratation or running would be the best choices. Maybe not for your ego/manhood but definitely the smart choice.
 
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offcamber said:
I understand it all depends on situation.In a room full of people I wouldn't draw unless someone else did first. I'm talking about a situation where no one else is around. Keep in mind this isn't MA.... My question was under NH laws, that's why this is posted in the NH law section. I guess retreat is the better option if available.
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In MA, if you are outside of your home you must retreat if it is safe to do so. I don't know about NH laws in that regard.

But beyond the retreating issue, you generally can't draw unless you (or another innocent) are about to die right now. A drunk idiot throwing punches probably does not meet that level of threat. And yes, it really sucks to have to deal with his abuse.

But think this situation through. Suppose you had drawn and he did not back off. Now what? Are you going to shoot him? Do you understand the legal implications? You'd likely be arrested and could well end up spending your life savings trying to stay out of jail. If you prevailed in court, you'd still be broke. If you didn't, you'd be spending a long time in jail.

If you can avoid drawing your gun, do so.
 
offcamber said:
I understand it all depends on situation.In a room full of people I wouldn't draw unless someone else did first. I'm talking about a situation where no one else is around. Keep in mind this isn't MA.... My question was under NH laws, that's why this is posted in the NH law section. I guess retreat is the better option if available.
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You keep stating that you're in NH like the rules for the use of deadly force are somehow different than most other places. Posting that you are planning to break the club rules by bringing a gun in the first place isn't a great way to start off.

Take a class from Ayoob, call your attorney, or both.

Wouldn't talking to the club board be a better idea? This guy might be starting beefs with others as well.
 
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fbirdquik6 said:
About 5.4million SHU's of Pepper spray does wonders on "tough guys".
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It is still a use of force and something to be avoided if you can just walk (or run) away instead.

When I took LFI-2, one of the assistant instructors had used OC spray in a similar situation. It took him 1 year and $10,000 in legal fees before he put the case behind him, and he never went to court. This was in rural, upstate NY, IIRC.
 
It's fairly simple. If you would be legally justified in shooting him stone dead on the spot, then (and only then) would you be legally justified in drawing your gun and (due to his reactions to that new element in the game) refraining from shooting him.

Ken
 
M1911 said:
It is still a use of force and something to be avoided if you can just walk (or run) away instead.

When I took LFI-2, one of the assistant instructors had used OC spray in a similar situation. It took him 1 year and $10,000 in legal fees before he put the case behind him, and he never went to court. This was in rural, upstate NY, IIRC.
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While I agree wholeheartedly that the best course of action is avoidance, the OP should have something available to him in the spectrum of force between getting his ass kicked and killing the guy. That something might be martial arts training, Kubaton, OC, Taser/stun gun, or something else, but the OP should have something in his bag of tricks to choose between being beaten and going for the gun.

That said, I again reiterate that avoidance is the best alternative if available, and comes with no bad "after effects" do deal with.
 
ScottS said:
While I agree wholeheartedly that the best course of action is avoidance, the OP should have something available to him in the spectrum of force between getting his ass kicked and killing the guy. That something might be martial arts training, Kubaton, OC, Taser/stun gun, or something else, but the OP should have something in his bag of tricks to choose between being beaten and going for the gun.

That said, I again reiterate that avoidance is the best alternative if available, and comes with no bad "after effects" do deal with.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was not saying that he shouldn't have OC. It is a good option.

The points I was trying to make are as follows:

1) OC is still a use of force (albeit relatively low on the force continuum).
2) You can't use any force unless the situation warrants it.
3) Your use of force will likely be reviewed by the criminal justice system.
4) The costs for using a relatively low level of force (even OC) can be high even if you are exonerated.

If a guy is being a jerk and making threats but not actually becoming physically violent, you probably can't legally pull out your OC spray and spray him.

We are in violent agreement about avoidance being the best solution if at all possible.
 
M1911 said:
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was not saying that he shouldn't have OC. It is a good option.

The points I was trying to make are as follows:

1) OC is still a use of force (albeit relatively low on the force continuum).
2) You can't use any force unless the situation warrants it.
3) Your use of force will likely be reviewed by the criminal justice system.
4) The costs for using a relatively low level of force (even OC) can be high even if you are exonerated.

If a guy is being a jerk and making threats but not actually becoming physically violent, you probably can't legally pull out your OC spray and spray him.

We are in violent agreement about avoidance being the best solution if at all possible.
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We're in violent agreement here, too. My assumption was always "clear intent/action to harm (i.e. beating on your head), but no clear intent to kill/maim." Too bad there's no easily-deployable "jerk repellant."
 
ScottS said:
the OP should have something available to him in the spectrum of force between getting his ass kicked and killing the guy.
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This. You must have as many tools at your disposal as possible. Martial arts is a good idea. But if I were you, I'd throw him out. If he touches you, press charges for assault and get a restraining order on him. That will keep him out of your club.
 
Report It!

Its really your duty to report this to the police. Since you already said you are afraid of running into him in other places... thats pretty serious. Your considering arming yourself because of this guy, I mean listen to what else you are saying.

Start the paper trail now as it will be in your best defense should you need it later. The police will probably do nothing about it but your attorney could have a field day with it. It might help you if he tries to vandilize the club or your property. He might try to make your life difficult or interfere with your lively hood.

Then you have to ask yourself why are you a member at this club? If they kick the guy out, then good. If not, you need to find a better social group.
 
motormann said:
Its really your duty to report this to the police. Since you already said you are afraid of running into him in other places... thats pretty serious. Your considering arming yourself because of this guy, I mean listen to what else you are saying.

Start the paper trail now as it will be in your best defense should you need it later. The police will probably do nothing about it but your attorney could have a field day with it. It might help you if he tries to vandilize the club or your property. He might try to make your life difficult or interfere with your lively hood.

Then you have to ask yourself why are you a member at this club? If they kick the guy out, then good. If not, you need to find a better social group.
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+1
 
Thanks, good info....as stated steps are being taken to remove the individual permanently. Just for the record I would never pull unless I meant to pull the trigger. The scary thing is the guy wasn't even drunk. Bartender confirmed he only had 4 beers in about a 5 hour period. A side note if you saw the size of this guy compared to me a jury would probably not have to much trouble thinking I was afraid for my life....Frankensteins monster comes to mind lol
 
M1911 said:
The points I was trying to make are as follows:

1) OC is still a use of force (albeit relatively low on the force continuum).
2) You can't use any force unless the situation warrants it.
Click to expand...
When WOULD you use OC in this situation? After eating a knuckle sandwich from a bigger guy?
 

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