in state/out of state question

[Pilgrim]

Bear with me as this has probably been answered but I can't find anything on it.

Scenario:

Someone lives in Ma during the 60's. Buys handguns - all private sales. Starting in the 60's moves to many different places around the country. Settles in a 'free' western state.

During 40+ years guns survived but paperwork, whatever there was at that time (greencards, maybe), disappeared during dozens of moves.

Person wants to transfer these items back to a family member in MA.

Several are C&R eligible but recipient isn't C&R licensed.

Questions:

How does one determine whether the items were in Ma before 1994(?) for a legal transfer? How would the state be able to determine they weren't?

Could they be handled FTF in Ma or would thay have to go thru an FFL - if they could be brought back at all.

This is a legitimate question asked of me by someone who wants to be completely legal in all transactions. I said I would ask on this forum.

thanks for your answers even if it might be one of those 'not again' questions.

 

[JonJ]

If the guns are still out of the state, they cannot be transfered back in through an FFL without proof that they were here legally before the gun control act. The state does not have the old records, supposedly destroyed. Can you say SOL? The C&R's would be OK only with the C&R license. Only other way would be that they be "willed" to the person and only after he/she passes would they be "allowed" in.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Actually the way the law is written is that the guns MUST be "in state" ON 10/21/1998. It doesn't say that if they were here on 10/18/1998 and left MA on 10/19/1998 that you can ever bring them back as "grandfathered".

That said, everyone interprets it as "having been legally owned in MA by a MA Licensee (LTC/FID/Dealer) ANYTIME PRIOR to 10/21/1998."

It is damn near impossible to prove that any gun was "in state" ON that day . . . what if you took it up to NH for the day and didn't return for 1-2 days?

But that is what you get when you allow total morons to write laws!

Without paperwork, almost no MA dealer will touch old handguns on someone's say-so. The fine is $5K/gun if the state goes after the dealer, so they need to be very cautious.

FTF would only work with up to 4 guns/year, and ONLY if the current owner moved back to MA and got a LTC. Or the MA resident moves to current owner's state and lives there for a lengthy time (NOT a week or two vacation, see Fed Law on 2 residences) then they can bring them back to MA.

If the guns are C&R, have the person in MA get their C&R FFL and then the C&R (ONLY) guns can be shipped directly to the MA C&R holder by the current owner out-of-state.

Otherwise, the MA person literally has to wait until the person dies and leaves the guns to the MA resident . . . provided that they are smart enough NOT to involve a MA Dealer (they can't do an inheritance transfer either), but again ships the guns directly to the MA LTC holder (exception allowed for in Fed and MGLs).

 

[C-pher]

What if you were to loan them to the guy...

Then the guy offers to put an addendum to the guys will?

Is there a law that says that you can't borrow a gun for 20 years?

 

[Lynne]

Is there a law that says that you can't borrow a gun for 20 years?

Not that I know of, but INAL.

 

[JonJ]

What if you were to loan them to the guy...

Then the guy offers to put an addendum to the guys will?

Is there a law that says that you can't borrow a gun for 20 years?

I think the BATFE would look upon that as something like a Straw Purchase. It's still a transfer in their eyes.
Would you loan a gun to someone?

 

[C-pher]

If it was someone close, like my kid or or my cousin? Yes.
To a guy down the street? No.

He never said who these two people were.

 

[Nickle]

I have a sort of answer to that. For a rental (we used to do them), you still fill out a 4473, and still make the phone call, if you're a dealer.

That's pretty cut and dried.

Now, in free states, like mine, it's a non-issue, since 2 non dealers can do a transaction, no calls or registration or paperwork. Don't even have to know each other.

 

[JonJ]

If it was someone close, like my kid or or my cousin? Yes.
To a guy down the street? No.

He never said who these two people were.

He said they were family members but remember where you live

 

[C-pher]

So, let's just say that my Grandfather says that he was wanting me to have one of his guns.

But I want to shoot it. I can't bring it home with me to shoot? And being that he's in KY and I'm in MA...it's going to be hard for me to bring it back next week...


I'm just saying.

 

[JonJ]

No, it's a transfer and you can't transfer a handgun over state lines without an FFL involved except in the cases that were already explained.
What if it wasn't your Grand Dad but a "friend" that wanted you to have it?
We're still at what Len and I have said.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ron Glidden has been advising people that it was OK to loan a gun to a relative, on a permanent basis. It was NOT a transfer (according to Ron) as ownership doesn't change.

The party who is looking after the gun can use it, etc. They just can't sell/give it away (not theirs to give). The legal owner can put it in their will and when they pass the executor makes it "official" and ownership transfers.

I have borrowed a gun from a friend (attorney) while my CCW piece was sent off to repair. I had possession of his gun for probably 4-6 weeks. Not an issue. Now my collection is very significantly larger and wouldn't have the need for such a favor.

 

[JonJ]

Ron Glidden has been advising people that it was OK to loan a gun to a relative, on a permanent basis. It was NOT a transfer (according to Ron) as ownership doesn't change.

The party who is looking after the gun can use it, etc. They just can't sell/give it away (not theirs to give). The legal owner can put it in their will and when they pass the executor makes it "official" and ownership transfers.

I have borrowed a gun from a friend (attorney) while my CCW piece was sent off to repair. I had possession of his gun for probably 4-6 weeks. Not an issue. Now my collection is very significantly larger and wouldn't have the need for such a favor.

Over state lines or just in state?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Specifically his advice was over state lines! It was a way to get guns that were due to be inherited to the next owner without hassle and the 1998 law getting in the way.

Feds don't care about transporting "normal" (non F/A) guns across state lines, ownership doesn't change and thus they won't care about this arrangement. That is the message that Ron has been preaching since 1998 anyway, including publicly in his seminars.

Many LEOs are telling widows that they must go thru FFLs on inheritance transfers and that will kill any handguns from being transferable! Bad Advice!!

 

[JonJ]

I know the BATF doesn't care about the transport but we're talking about the transfer of possession.

Take this for instance, you want to use one of my M1 Garands for deer hunting that is entered into my C&R log. The way I understand it, the BATF says that once it leaves my possession, even if I loan it to you, I must enter it my log as a disposition. When you return it, I must re-enter as an acquisition. No?

 

[Nickle]

You may want to call on this scenario.

When we did rentals, it may not have had to go out in the book, even though we HAD to do the 4473.

Of course, when if it didn't return, then it became a permanent entry.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Nickle, remember the rules for FFLs are VERY DIFFERENT from those for normal folks. Everything that comes in and goes out at an FFL must be logged and accounted for. NOT true in a household.

Example: I have a good friend who escaped MA to AZ. Let's say that I visit him and leave a few guns there because I'll be back every year (or more or less frequently). He's a shooter too and may use them at his leisure.

Example 2: I rent/own/share property with someone in another state (let's say it is a condo and I visit it a few times/year, other relatives also use it during the year). I leave some of my clothes, furnishings, guns there for use when I spend time in that state.

Both of the above examples do NOT require any FFLs, any transfers, any notification of states/Feds (as long as they aren't NFA items).

I have a friend who lived in NH, bought F/A guns. He took a job at Microsoft in WA where he couldn't have F/A. He left his F/A guns in NH. Subsequently he sold his NH home but his guns are still in NH! Not a problem.

-------------------------------------

Jon, see the above to Nickle. Having ANY sort of FFL complicates matters (if applicable). Yes, anything on your books as C&R must be logged in/out. If it is a "modern gun" (or you didn't have a C&R FFL) this would NOT apply.

 

[Nickle]

Jon referred to his C&R. Same rules as a type 01 FFL.

My previous post referred to a normal person being able to loan or even transfer a firearm with NO record in a free state.

THe Arizona circumstance you mentioned may or may not apply to firearms in your C&R books.

 

[JonJ]

Interesting discussion, I learned something new. Thanks guys.

There ya go Pilgrim, all your friend needs to do is get out there and pick them up.

 

[Pilgrim]

So let me get this straight.

If the guy brings them to the relative in Ma and leaves them there but doesn't transfer ownership, this is ok?

Then, for them to be legally transferred to the relative in this state, the only way would be to will them to him?

If this is what you're saying, I would think that a letter stating that they were his and not the property of the relative would be prudent for the relative to have on hand.

This sounds too simple for Mass.

 

[KMaurer]

It's only that way because nobody has pointed it out to Barrios and his buddies. Of course, they'd never take the word of anybody who knew shit from Shinola about firearms.

Ken

 

[Lynne]

It's only that way because nobody has pointed it out to Barrios and his buddies. Of course, they'd never take the word of anybody who knew shit from Shinola about firearms.

Ken

Well...they haven't as yet, so why start now? It might become a habit...Gawd forbid. [roll]

 

[Pilgrim]

Thanks for the input. I'll let him know.