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- Thread starter Bfatz
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No need to be concerned, as there will be an independent investigation by two unbiased organizations 
Whatever else may transpire against these officers as this unfolds, you can't deny that they were the personification of Pride, Integrity, and Guts.
cockpitbob
NES Member
Nobody knows for sure. But in the dark, outside pointing a small metal object shaped like a gun around while drunk is not a good idea. If he pointed it at you what would you do? Try see down the barrel to determine the caliber? I think this is a case were nobody is the winner. I would of hated to be in the responding cops shoes and I feel for this guys family.
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MisterHappy
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The cops were in a "position of concealment"....if they were well concealed, the [now] dead guy may not have known that they were there....
He'd been pointing the nozzle at a variety of things, the cops shouldn't have felt so special.
He'd been pointing the nozzle at a variety of things, the cops shouldn't have felt so special.
The interview I saw in TV with the Chief said he was hit twice with a shotgun and six rounds from handguns. I would imagine the two shotgun wounds did far more damage than the six handgun wounds.
It's entirely possible he never knew the police officers were there.
Well, he may have after the first shot went off and before the shot that killed him went off. Assuming the first shot isn't the one that killed him.
Damn good thing they cuffed him before ascertaining he was dead, I hate when the guy that was shot 8 times, 2 with a shotgun and 6 with a handgun gets up and kills everyone.
>>>"They wanted to shoot him before he shot them," Zapalski said. "There was no time to react.<<<
This pretty much says it all right here. They wanted to shoot him. Massachusetts will be banning water nozzles now to protect us from our own version of trigger happy cops.
This pretty much says it all right here. They wanted to shoot him. Massachusetts will be banning water nozzles now to protect us from our own version of trigger happy cops.
There appears to have been about 15 rounds worth of time to react.
Some of you folks must not have even read the article. The guy was sitting on the steps, the LEOs never even identified themselves, and they were in a position of cover so this poor bastard probably did not even know they were there. It says he raised the nozzle in their direction which he probably thought was just open space (remember he did not know they were there, they were cowering behind cover). And they decided to pop him again and again. How many times have members here sat on there front steps after mowing the lawn watering the grass or washing the car and sucked down a suds or two. This guy did nothing wrong but paid the ultimate price. I can't think of one thing he did that I would even consider stupid.
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Completely agree. I don't think it matters what the object in his hands looked like or if it was even actually a gun. Was he actually threatening anyone? Remember, the cops were concealed and did not identify themselves. If I'm in my yard with one of my guns should the cops sneak up on me and shoot me? Sorry but they are obligated to identify themselves and issue a command. What if I'm on the way to the range? Or just in my yard pointing my gun at things (non humans). I can't do that? When did we become so afraid of tools (guns or water nozzles) that we shoot first then speak? These guys should not be cops and do a disservice to those that are true professionals.
I see the same thing... other things I notice are all black uniforms and vehicles or black and whites... no more white cruisers or blue uniforms (except the state police MA) often you see a "dirty harry approach" shoot first worry later *remember no matter what the cop goes home, this is what they all recite even on this board. I don't know how I feel about it, who gives a crap anyway. Just some of my observations.
In my suburban town the cops wear full 5.11 tactical gear... really? Well if anyone should be ready for "go time" it should be the cops. Those 5.11 Tact pants are comfortable though I don't blame them for wearing them instead of the standard uniform pants.
They may have been following something like this:
Boghog1
NES Member
Doesn't O expect the troops to do this in Iraq and Afghanistan?
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
Valid point I have to say, but they are also issued a lot better gear allowing them to sustain fire more efficiently. I do agree with you though. The only problem is we are discussing (or second guessing) an issue at the ground level that is set in place by policy makers. If they had a say in it, I would bet the majority of troops would love to be able to shoot first and ask questions later if it meant they got to go home to their families at the end of the day (or tour).
After reading all of these posts I also find something else fairly interesting and worthy of discussion. When there is an article in the news about someone getting their "weapons arsenal" or "cache" confiscated, this site typically follows with numerous comments about how inaccurate or ignorant the news agency was in their reporting. Typically stating that these reporters can twist the story to fit their view or agenda. Then you take a story like this and these same people hang on every fact reported by these same agencies like it is the gospel. This is appearing to be a double standard fueled in this case by a dislike for law enforcement and less to do with what actually happened.
Again, just my $.02 and I am just as full of crap as the next guy.
Boghog1
NES Member
I don't think it is a dislike for law enforcement as much as it is a dislike of the perception/portayal that citizens are too incompetent to own firearms and that LE and .Mil are the only ones professional enough to use firearms
I gotcha, too bad though because I do not think that view is the norm. At least not in Maine but maybe we are lucky. I do not think I have ever spoken with an officer who thought I should not own a firearm.
This sort of crap is really pushing the bounds of "agency," in my book... People acting on behalf of, at the request of the government violating your rights with illegal surveillance and murdering you on your front lawn for air-gunning on a non-watering day...
![[angry2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/019.gif "Angry2 [angry2]")
.America needs to grow the hell up... This infantile mentality is literally killing people on a daily basis now...
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Everyone talks about it not being a good idea to point anything at a cop, ever. It seems every time I hear a story where a LEO shoots an unarmed person there's a LEO in a fancy uniform talking about how civilians need to act a certain way around police officers so they don't get shot. Sorry, kids, the burden of training is on the guy in the uniform. I respect their role and its risks and difficulties but anyone who thinks the drunk guy with the water nozzle was to blame is just wrong. Nothing in print suggests he was ordered to do anything (or even aware of the LEO's presence) which means there's nothing to suggest he denied an officer's commands. The LEOs panicked and that panic left an innocent man dead. Own the mistake and figure out how and never gets made again by finding the root cause and fixing it.
Maybe that's the case with the guys who actually go out and do the job, but there are enough of them there, and even more sitting behind desks to pose a real problem for gun owners in most places. We can all pretty much flip off the media fools (though they're much more important in the long run), but it's rather risky to do that to the people who approve/deny/revoke/restrict your right to own or carry a gun and who can make your life miserable in a thousand ways if they decide to take it personally.
Ken
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