If overpenetration is not an issue......

[Scrivener]

From The Box O' Truth: "In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs." (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm)

Why use #4 buck if "tests have shown" it lacks penetration?

1. I see ONE test by ONE entity. Moreover, the "tests have shown" quite the opposite. From the self-proclaimed "Box 'O Truth" test:

This load was Remington 2 3/4", #4 Buck, 27 pellets.

This is the damage to the sheetrock.

It penetrated 6 sheets and bounced off the 7th sheet.

Does that sound like a round that "lacks penetration?"

Notice how the wall "collapsed" under the shot.
The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth

This is the entrance wound.

All shots were from a measured 12 feet from the muzzle to the first wall.

Notice that there is an approximate 3 1/2 inch spread.

We will discuss this later.

I then shot a load of Winchester 2 3/4", #1 Buck, 16 pellets.

This round penetrated 6 sheets and bounced off the 7th.

Just like the #4 Buck.

So - according to the "Box 'O Truth," #1 has the same penetration as #4. So - penetration being equal, which would YOU rather throw at your assailant - 16 pellets or 27?

 

[Mike-Mike]

Another vote for #4 Buck. Multiple hits it was stops things faster.

 

[Diggs]

Slugs are neat and clean. Just a big hole that I have to close, if I can.

I have seen what slugs do to deer and coyotes, and its a little more than "Just a big hole". It's a big hole(so big you can see daylight through it sometimes), with shattered bone and massive damage. Death often occurs in seconds. Just sayin.

 

[mike93lx]

I have seen what slugs do to deer and coyotes, and its a little more than "Just a big hole". It's a big hole(so big you can see daylight through it sometimes), with shattered bone and massive damage. Death often occurs in seconds. Just sayin.

not to sound like someone just here to start another argument, but seconds could be long enough for an armed intruder to fire back.

 

[Diggs]

I'm not advocating the use of slugs for HD because overpenetration is definitely an issue .

 

[Coyote33]

I have seen what slugs do to deer and coyotes, and its a little more than "Just a big hole". It's a big hole(so big you can see daylight through it sometimes), with shattered bone and massive damage. Death often occurs in seconds. Just sayin.

Sounds like a lot of sewin'!

 

[Realtor MA]

From The Box O' Truth: "In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs." (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm)

Why use #4 buck if "tests have shown" it lacks penetration?

In a HD situation (translation; at close range) that #4 shot is going to stop a lot of stuff.
A 1 1/8 oz or 1 1/4 oz load of lead is going to hit like a ton of bricks.

 

[MassMark]

I'll see your #4 and it's 27 pellets and raise you 3.5" Magnum 00 Buck with it's 18 big bad balls...

 

[Realtor MA]

I'll see your #4 and it's 27 pellets and raise you 3.5" Magnum 00 Buck with it's 18 big bad balls...

The beauty of that stuff is that you can stop the home intruder and still have 16 balls left. When it punches through an exterior wall you'll be feeding your family for weeks. 8 squirrels, 4 crows, 2 chipmunks, the domino's delivery man, and your wife's new mercedes.

 

[EcHo]

What are the disadvantages to using #1 or 0, 00, or 000 buck as opposed to #4? Basically, why use #4 when there are bigger ones out there? Obviously you don't want to go so big that you blow holes through the bad guy and then your neighbors' walls, but why is #4 preferred?

I'm new to shotguns and their uses, so sorry if this is an obvious question.

And as Scriv pointed out above, #1 and #4 have the same penetration except the #4 makes more holes in the bad guy. Why would you want more holes instead of bigger holes?

 

[MassMark]

The beauty of that stuff is that you can stop the home intruder and still have 16 balls left. When it punches through an exterior wall you'll be feeding your family for weeks. 8 squirrels, 4 crows, 2 chipmunks, the domino's delivery man, and your wife's new mercedes.

LOL! I was only I can't imagine using the 3.5's for HD, but the ramifications for the shoot-ee are not so great...I fired off a few boxes of those at the Pumpkin Blast and they tore chit up...So night-and-day from standard 00 Buck and shot very soft out of the Benelli. What I will tell people who may not have caught my thread about the Benelli Super Nova Tactical: Stay away from Remington Wingmaster Ultimate Home Defense...I cannot imagine staking my life or that of my families on this stuff...

 

[Scrivener]

What are the disadvantages to using #1 or 0, 00, or 000 buck as opposed to #4? Basically, why use #4 when there are bigger ones out there? Obviously you don't want to go so big that you blow holes through the bad guy and then your neighbors' walls, but why is #4 preferred?

I'm new to shotguns and their uses, so sorry if this is an obvious question.

And as Scriv pointed out above, #1 and #4 have the same penetration except the #4 makes more holes in the bad guy. Why would you want more holes instead of bigger holes?

Because those "bigger holes" are more likely to be EXIT wounds - and that means:

1. A greater risk of collateral damage; AND

2. Less energy dump into your attacker.

MORE holes means MORE likelihood of penetrating a part of the body the attacker needs to be in working order to attack you with.

 

[Blitz1]

If you have the shotgun properly secured according to MA law it's irrelevant because you won't have it when you need it.

 

[MassMark]

If you have the shotgun properly secured according to MA law it's irrelevant because you won't have it when you need it.

Party pooper...

 

[EcHo]

Because those "bigger holes" are more likely to be EXIT wounds - and that means:

1. A greater risk of collateral damage; AND

2. Less energy dump into your attacker.

MORE holes means MORE likelihood of penetrating a part of the body the attacker needs to be in working order to attack you with.

Isn't the probability of creating exit holes measured by penetration capability? If #1 and #4 have the same penetration capability wouldn't they be equally likely to create exit holes and the therefore equally likely to cause collateral damage?

If anything, wouldn't #4 be more likely to cause collateral damage because you have MORE pellets penetrating the perp? I do, however, see why you would want to create more holes in the attacker.

 

[FreeWillie]

I have seen what slugs do to deer and coyotes, and its a little more than "Just a big hole". It's a big hole(so big you can see daylight through it sometimes), with shattered bone and massive damage. Death often occurs in seconds. Just sayin.

It tears everything up. Snaps bone like it's peanut brittle. God forbid it's a hollow point slug that frags. Now that's a mess! If it hits a sternum and shatters after breaking the bone. You're wasting your time but you have to go through the motions. You should see what it does when it hits a hip! Ewwwwwwwwwwwww!

 

[weekendracer]

Isn't the probability of creating exit holes measured by penetration capability? If #1 and #4 have the same penetration capability wouldn't they be equally likely to create exit holes and the therefore equally likely to cause collateral damage?

If anything, wouldn't #4 be more likely to cause collateral damage because you have MORE pellets penetrating the perp? I do, however, see why you would want to create more holes in the attacker.

At these distances, the shot spread is going to be minimal as someone already stated. Some pellets will still get outside the intended target, it's all about putting the most hurt on target, more pellets (more slightly smaller vs lower number of larger pellets) will do more overall damage with a higher chance of hitting something vital.

It's kind of a GM/Ford argument. Ask if a 9mm is a valid defensive round, you'll get the same discussion.

 

[groundscrapers]

From the Internet:

Because a shotgun shell is really just a shaped charge behind a payload, shotgun shells can be filled with a wide variety of loads, many of which are legal. A California-based company sells many different shells, and has had many different names. Originally known as the Blammo Ammo company, they're currently called Fun Ammo. While most of these shells are legal, they may require an extra hazardous materials charge to ship.

* Avenger: Hollow steel balls with a low gunpowder load. Short range and low recoil, with low penetration. Could be useful in a situation requiring low penetration, such as home defense. Semi-nonlethal.
* Bird Bombs: An explosive payload, which (in theory) detonates on impact. Roughly equivalent to an m80 firecracker.
* Bolo: Two heavy slugs connected by piano wire. Was once known as the garrote slug. While impossible to aim, the wire becomes a very hazardous blade at muzzle velocity.
* Bouncer: Two zytel (nylon) balls. High muzzle velocity, very low penetration. Semi-nonlethal, like rubber bullets.
* Chain reaction: A 6-inch length of chain. Impacts in a rather random pattern.
* Comet: A regular shotgun slug with a red tracer.
* Detonator: Essentially, a hollow lead slug with an explosive tip. It's made with for the purpose of filling with your own explosive or other payload, which then detonates on impact.
* Door buster: Tiny lead pellets, approaching lead dust. Impacts with full force, but over a larger area, with very little penetration.
* Dragon's Breath: Yes, these really do exist, and yes, you can order them for $16.98 each. White phosphorous that ignites upon being shot. Creates a 100-yard flamethrower that burns for about three seconds. Contrary to popular belief, this does not damage a smooth-bore shotgun.
* Fire siren: A small weighted whistle. Incredibly loud at muzzle velocity. Wear ear protection.
* Flash bomb: Like the bird bomb, above, but using a flash-powder incendiary instead of an explosive one.
* Flechette: A whole bunch of needles. High penetration.
* Hammer: A bean-bag round; a nylon bag filled with tiny shot. High impact, but theoretically nonlethal.
* Mini Missile: A solid lead slug with a steel core. The lead slug peels away on impact, driving the core through hard targets (like armor.)
* Napalm: Like the Bird Bomb, above, but filled with white phosphorous, which burns very hot upon impact.
* Pit Bull: Six big lead pelletes, and one big slug. Not that exotic, really.
* Shredder: A lot of sharp tacks. Short range, but high trauma to flesh.
* Smoke bomb: Essentially, the Dragon's Breath Round, only using a smoke powder instead.
* Stinger: 16 zytel (nylon) balls. Essentially, the rubber bullet for shotguns. Semi-nonlethal.
* Super flare: A shotgun-launched flare.

http://www.americanspecialtyammo.com/12_Gauge.html

 

[Eye5600]

not to sound like someone just here to start another argument, but seconds could be long enough for an armed intruder to fire back.

I think the point is that you can always imagine a bigger, stronger, better equipped bad guy with more friends, and talk yourself up to needing another gun, a bigger caliber, a deadlier round. Realistically, though, you have to draw a line. If the governor sends a company of battle-tested National Guard after you, it's probably better just to surrender. If six gangbangers with full auto AKs storm your house, they are probably going to kill you, no matter what guns and ammo you have, so stay out of the drug trade and the rackets, and don't get a reputation for keeping a lot of cash in your house.

On a less draconian level, the bad guy with determination to press his attack in the face of armed resistance and after taking fire does exist, but he is rare. The Box of Truth says birdshot is for little birds, and that's right, but very few men will press an attack into the face of it.

If you want one of the bigger weapons, look into the effects of firing in closed quarters. The explosion of a 12 Ga is reported to be followed often by a period of recovery while the participants regain their wits. I saw a video of a .357 being fired in a space closed off by tarps due to rain, and collected rainwater in the "roof" was blown off as the tarps billowed out. Permanent damage to hearing is a real possibility.

You CAN be too macho.