I could use a little help with target analysis for OCW

[Hoon]

Rifle: Savage Model 10 "Predator MAX1" .223 (22" 1:9)
Bullet: Hornady 68gr BTHP
Powder: 22-23gr H322 / 24-25gr Varget
Win Brass with WSR Primers
2.26 COAL


For whatever reason, i always get large variations in muzzle velocity with Varget in this rifle.

I know a lot of guys swear by the stuff...but i just can't seem to get the consistency i get with other powders. The 6 targets have 2 groups each, the upper group is with H322 and the lower is with Varget. Somehow the charge with the biggest variation in muzzle velocity produced .15 MOA...so either my Chrony lied to me or it's just one of those bizarre things.

I'm pretty comfortable settling on 22.6gr of H322 and beginning to play with COAL for that load.

Varget....i'm not sure what to make of it.



The targets are in order (left to right) and correspond with the velocity tables below...target 2 has a particularly bad called flyer on the varget group. I was rushing this testing in general as i was freezing my butt off.

H322:

Charge	Sample 1	Sample 2	Sample 3	AVG	ES	SD	Notes:
22	2721	2737	2749	2736	28	14.05
22.2	2783	2836	2777	2799	59	32.47
22.4	2818	2842	2812	2824	30	15.87
22.6	2818	2836	2801	2818	35	17.50
22.8	x	2855	2824	2840	31	21.92
23	2904	2943	2879	2909	64	32.25

Varget:

Charge	Sample 1	Sample 2	Sample 3	AVG	ES	SD	Notes:
24	2688	2721	2737	2715	49	24.98666
24.2	2715	2732	2732	2726	17	9.814955	2 IN SAME HOLE, 1 CALLED FLYER
24.4	2812	2787	2830	2810	43	21.59475	POOR GROUP, ACCURATE CENTER
24.6	2721	2789	2830	2780	109	55.05452	.15 MOA
24.8	2812	2812	2892	2839	80	46.18802
25	2886	2836	2886	2869	50	28.86751

 

[mac1911]

have you tried seating the 68gn bthp XXX" off the lands measured by the ogive ? I dont load the 68s any more in my AR as I just stick to the 77s. Although when I fooled with slightly longer seating depth with OAL length I found to get strange groups some good some bad. I figured it was most likely the distance from the lands varying with the AOL method of seating bullets?
have you tried other bullets through this rifle over the crony. I found varget out of my 20" match AR to be very consistant over the shooting chrony

your large SD and small group size would seem odd by the numbers. no? I dont know enough about the numbers to say. I check my loads to see if im close to where the load should be and just go with the most accurate consistant load.

 

[AntiHippie]

I'm not fully comfortable with my understanding of the OCW load development process, so I'm hoping to learn a bit here too, but isn't the velocity less important than the consistency of shot groups from POA?

 

[mac1911]

I'm not fully comfortable with my understanding of the OCW load development process, so I'm hoping to learn a bit here too, but isn't the velocity less important than the consistency of shot groups from POA?

I'm not organized enough to shoot the groups of different charges the way Mr. Newberry instructs you to do so.
I much rather just load a few rounds with different charge weights and shoot for group size.

Hoon hornady list their 68gn hpbt bullets at max of 2.250 AOL. Maybe that extra .010 gets you a,little to close to the lands on tighter chambers? You also can't really rush this test. If you don't allow the same cooling time between shots or mess up the order while running through the one shot from each load on each target through the cycle it will not give details sent results.

 

[mac1911]

I'm not fully comfortable with my understanding of the OCW load development process, so I'm hoping to learn a bit here too, but isn't the velocity less important than the consistency of shot groups from POA?

I'm not organized enough to shoot the groups of different charges the way Mr. Newberry instructs you to do so.
I much rather just load a few rounds with different charge weights and shoot for group size.

Hoon hornady list their 68gn hpbt bullets at max of 2.250 AOL. Maybe that extra .010 gets you a,little to close to the lands on tighter chambers? So that said those groups of 322 should tell you varget is not good in your rifle/load combination.

Hoon-- where you holding on the Orange bull for both groups? If so I'm a,bit shocked at how high the 322 printed vs the varget?

If people are wondering OCW optimum charge weight http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ocw-instructions/4529817134

 

[EddieCoyle]

Hey Hoon,

All of the groups look to be about the same distance from the point of aim. Did you adjust the sights, or were all your Varget groups about an inch low and a bit to the right regardless of charge weight?

 

[Arto]

maybe try benchrest primers?

 

[EddieCoyle]

I'm not organized enough to shoot the groups of different charges the way Mr. Newberry instructs you to do so.
I much rather just load a few rounds with different charge weights and shoot for group size.

Hoon hornady list their 68gn hpbt bullets at max of 2.250 AOL. Maybe that extra .010 gets you a,little to close to the lands on tighter chambers? So that said those groups of 322 should tell you varget is not good in your rifle/load combination.

Hoon-- where you holding on the Orange bull for both groups? If so I'm a,bit shocked at how high the 322 printed vs the varget?

If people are wondering OCW optimum charge weight http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ocw-instructions/4529817134

I don't get it. It really doesn't take a lot of organizational skills to load three rounds of few different powder charges and shoot them at level targets and compare them to one another. If you think it through, it's much better than shooting a few groups which will give you a result more affected by luck than anything else.

Unless you're shooting dozens of groups, just loading a few rounds and looking for group size is a good way to latch onto a less than optimal load.

Unless you're looking at different targets than me, I don't see where Varget is not good. His "worst" group has a called flyer, and other than the OP saying he was freezing his ass off, you know nothing about the conditions in which the groups were fired and they're all sub-MOA.

Seriously... This kind of commentary infuriates me because some newbie might read this and think he's doing something wrong, when he's doing everything right and might not be able to hold to < 1/4 MOA or have a rifle capable of shooting that way.

I really don't see how you can call something "not good" when it's shooting to about 1/2 MOA outside in the winter.

 

[Hoon]

have you tried seating the 68gn bthp XXX" off the lands measured by the ogive ?

have you tried other bullets through this rifle over the crony. I found varget out of my 20" match AR to be very consistant over the shooting chrony

your large SD and small group size would seem odd by the numbers. no? I dont know enough about the numbers to say. I check my loads to see if im close to where the load should be and just go with the most accurate consistant load.

I have not played with depth on this bullet yet. The point of this test is only to figure out a charge weight with the most room for forgiveness...then begin testing the seating depth to tighten the group.

I have tested some 55gr bullets with Varget and gotten wide variations as well. I thought given the slow burning nature of Varget that this might change behind a heavier bullet, but no such luck.

It is definitely odd to have a 100+FPS variation and get a .15 MOA group in the process.

I'm not fully comfortable with my understanding of the OCW load development process, so I'm hoping to learn a bit here too, but isn't the velocity less important than the consistency of shot groups from POA?

Yes, but typically you will see consistency in muzzle velocity around the OCW and +/- 1%. Basically, the chrony should back up what you see in POI on your targets.

I'm not organized enough to shoot the groups of different charges the way Mr. Newberry instructs you to do so.
I much rather just load a few rounds with different charge weights and shoot for group size.

Hoon hornady list their 68gn hpbt bullets at max of 2.250 AOL. Maybe that extra .010 gets you a,little to close to the lands on tighter chambers? You also can't really rush this test. If you don't allow the same cooling time between shots or mess up the order while running through the one shot from each load on each target through the cycle it will not give details sent results.

Shooting a round robin method, the lack of cool down time should have the same effect on all groups. I allowed 0 cooling time during this test. As quickly as i could get the next round into the chamber is as quickly as i sent it.

I'm not organized enough to shoot the groups of different charges the way Mr. Newberry instructs you to do so.
I much rather just load a few rounds with different charge weights and shoot for group size.

Hoon hornady list their 68gn hpbt bullets at max of 2.250 AOL. Maybe that extra .010 gets you a,little to close to the lands on tighter chambers? So that said those groups of 322 should tell you varget is not good in your rifle/load combination.

Hoon-- where you holding on the Orange bull for both groups? If so I'm a,bit shocked at how high the 322 printed vs the varget?

If people are wondering OCW optimum charge weight http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ocw-instructions/4529817134

I was holding the orange bull, but adjusted the scope between the powders so the groups would not overlap.

Hey Hoon,

All of the groups look to be about the same distance from the point of aim. Did you adjust the sights, or were all your Varget groups about an inch low and a bit to the right regardless of charge weight?

All scope settings were untouched for each powder. They were adjusted 2 MOA when switching powders to keep the groups independent. As i increased the Varget charge it slowly moved down and to the right. The H322 groups went slightly right but no change in vertical POI. Overall the shifts in group center are pretty minor.

maybe try benchrest primers?

Maybe...could be an ignition issue with the slower powder? I know Varget is good stuff, i just don't know why it's inconsistent for me/my particular setup.

I don't get it. It really doesn't take a lot of organizational skills to load three rounds of few different powder charges and shoot them at level targets and compare them to one another. If you think it through, it's much better than shooting a few groups which will give you a result more affected by luck than anything else.

Unless you're shooting dozens of groups, just loading a few rounds and looking for group size is a good way to latch onto a less than optimal load.

Unless you're looking at different targets than me, I don't see where Varget is not good. His "worst" group has a called flyer, and other than the OP saying he was freezing his ass off, you know nothing about the conditions in which the groups were fired and they're all sub-MOA.

Seriously... This kind of commentary infuriates me because some newbie might read this and think he's doing something wrong, when he's doing everything right and might not be able to hold to < 1/4 MOA or have a rifle capable of shooting that way.

I really don't see how you can call something "not good" when it's shooting to about 1/2 MOA outside in the winter.

Lol, someone struck a nerve

I'm thinking about loading 5 with Varget at 24.0, 24.2, 24.4, and 24.6 grains, and sending the 5 shot groups 200yds.

This should give me a better idea of group center location and any shift in group center. Will also give me a bigger sample size on the chrony for each charge, and more POI shift with changes in MV.

Think this will be helpful? Any thoughts for other test methods?

 

[EddieCoyle]

I'm thinking about loading 5 with Varget at 24.0, 24.2, 24.4, and 24.6 grains, and sending the 5 shot groups 200yds.

This should give me a better idea of group center location and any shift in group center. Will also give me a bigger sample size on the chrony for each charge, and more POI shift with changes in MV.

Think this will be helpful? Any thoughts for other test methods?

Do this, but without the chrony (unless you're involved in some shooting activity where measured velocity repeatability is more important that where the bullets hit).

 

[mac1911]

Eddy I guess what I ment is I don't have the time or patience to load 6 groups of three rounds
Then shoot 1 round from each group at 6 different targets while waiting for the barrel to cool between each shot then repeat the the process until you have 3 shots on each target.
Maybe I'm wrong but is that not the method Mr Newberry uses.....

I see his H322 groups being much better than the varget..... no? Also the H322 has a more consistent group placement through out the powder charges. Which is what OCW system is looking for correct.

Bless you guys with the time and patience to test like this. If I some how,came off as saying OCW was a,waste of time that was not my intention.

When you compare Hoons 6 groups H322 vs Varget it looks like H322 has tightest groups and the less change in poi vs poa between the loads. Maybe I'm wrong in my observation.

Hoon had a super tight group with varget with a huge spread in velocity ?
So is that luck, equipment or does SD not matter much? Do you go with varget because of that 1 super tight group or with the H322?

 

[EddieCoyle]

I see his H322 groups being much better than the varget..... no?

Not if you take the OP at his word and take out the Varget group with a called flyer. If you do this, his Varget groups average .474 MOA, while the H322 groups average .492 MOA. If you take out the worst H322 group (with no called flyers) the average is still well within the margin of error of the group measuring software he's using.

What do you consider "much" better?


Also, before we start splitting hairs here, let's establish a few baseline assumptions with regards to precision...

1. How many MOA of inconsistency do you attribute to the shooter? In other words, from the beginning of his session to the end, how much error do you think Hoon induces? Do you think he can hold to within 1/8 MOA? 1/4? 1/2? How good is he?

2. Same question as above, but instead of Hoon, let's think about his rifle's barrel. How much time between shots? What affect does barrel heating have on his groups? Is it reasonable to think that there might be at least 1/4 MOA change from a cold barrel to a hot one? If not, then he's got one friggin' exceptional barrel.

3. Same question with regards to C.O.A.L. Is he using a competition seating die, or a die that presses on the tip of the bullet? If it presses on the tip, what were the length variations of the bullets? Were all of his bullets from the same lot? Were they made on the same machine with the same tooling on the same day?

Do you still think his groups are "much" better with one powder than with another?

Is "Varget is much worse than H322" the takeaway you want inexperienced reloaders reading this three years from now to to have?

 

[EddieCoyle]

As far as what I'd go with,

I think it would be foolish to draw any conclusions yet. Everything he has shown here indicates exceptional accuracy/precision. When shit is this close, you need to take it out farther to clarify things.

Also, when you're looking to the OCW, leave the chrony at home. You still need to mess with the COAL after finding the OCW. Since the OAL will affect the velocity and the consistency of velocity from shot-to-shot, you are doing nothing but adding noise by measuring the velocity in the middle of the process.

 

[mac1911]

I will give Hoon huge credit to pull off 12 sub moa groups just loading and shooting at a rapid pace in cold weather.

 

[Hoon]

Eddy I guess what I ment is I don't have the time or patience to load 6 groups of three rounds
Then shoot 1 round from each group at 6 different targets while waiting for the barrel to cool between each shot then repeat the the process until you have 3 shots on each target.
Maybe I'm wrong but is that not the method Mr Newberry uses.....

I see his H322 groups being much better than the varget..... no? Also the H322 has a more consistent group placement through out the powder charges. Which is what OCW system is looking for correct.

Bless you guys with the time and patience to test like this. If I some how,came off as saying OCW was a,waste of time that was not my intention.

When you compare Hoons 6 groups H322 vs Varget it looks like H322 has tightest groups and the less change in poi vs poa between the loads. Maybe I'm wrong in my observation.

Hoon had a super tight group with varget with a huge spread in velocity ?
So is that luck, equipment or does SD not matter much? Do you go with varget because of that 1 super tight group or with the H322?

The POI of H322 is definitely more consistent across the test, but we're also splitting hairs. I'm leaning towards H322 for this load, but i cannot count varget out yet. It groups very well at 100 yards...it will be interesting to see if i can hold those groups as the distances increase (where velocity inconsistency will start to string the shots vertically).

As far as what I'd go with,

I think it would be foolish to draw any conclusions yet. Everything he has shown here indicates exceptional accuracy/precision. When shit is this close, you need to take it out farther to clarify things.

Also, when you're looking to the OCW, leave the chrony at home. You still need to mess with the COAL after finding the OCW. Since the OAL will affect the velocity and the consistency of velocity from shot-to-shot, you are doing nothing but adding noise by measuring the velocity in the middle of the process.

That's a fair point. Given that COAL has yet to be determined, chrony numbers could just be muddying the waters.

I will give Hoon huge credit to pull off 12 sub moa groups just loading and shooting at a rapid pace in cold weather.

Thanks

 

[mac1911]

Well of course we are splitting hairs..... your shooting 1/2" groups or less....not much left to split than hairs....

 

[Hoon]

Heading to the range now to shoot the 200yd 5-shot groups. Will post results tonight

 

[Hoon]

Best 5-shot at 200yds, no cooling time, round robin. .28 MOA

I'll get the rest of them up later

 

[EddieCoyle]

Nice!

 

[Hoon]

Ok, so here is the detailed info from the yesterday's session. I didn't have time to get everything analyzed and compiled yesterday.

When i shot that ridiculously tight 3-shot group i thought it was a fluke. Putting 4 bullets through one elongated hole at 200 yards confirms that it was not a fluke, and for whatever reason (something in the harmonics) that particular charge weight just freakin' shoots.

Out of the 25 shots i pulled one (jerked the trigger on the 24.2gr varget group) and took one without a completely clear sight picture (top left on the H322 group)...i had come on and off the scope too many times in a short period of time and was having trouble focusing...i shouldn't have taken the shot. I do not think it is fair to the load to count either shot in my results when i know i didn't do my part.

Conditions were 34 degrees with a 2-5mph cross wind, overcast.

Round robin style, no cooling time except the couple minutes i took to snap a few pics of the guy a few lanes over with the exploding AR15 (thread on that is in the general forum).

 

[EddieCoyle]

Looks like you found it.

 

[Dnotarianni]

Best 5-shot at 200yds, no cooling time, round robin. .28 MOA

I'll get the rest of them up later


View attachment 127777

Please throw away the chrony before you screw something up. That group needs no improvement
Dave

 

[Steve Marshall]

Chronographs are useful when working up "normal" loads on the hotter end. If you plot your shots, you'll likely find a plateau where velocity doesn't increase relative to the additional charge. This means that the extra 25 FPS gained with raising charge weight is unbeneficial. When you start shooting half MOA, the chronograph is useless but for bragging rights and , estimating only, trajectory. I regularly shoot <.25 MOA with iron sights and my M1A. Sometimes a little more when the scotch tape slips either on the muzzle or the target.

 

[Hoon]

Please throw away the chrony before you screw something up. That group needs no improvement
Dave

Lol, i agree.

Will be testing with the 75GR BTHP next week.

Chronographs are useful when working up "normal" loads on the hotter end. If you plot your shots, you'll likely find a plateau where velocity doesn't increase relative to the additional charge. This means that the extra 25 FPS gained with raising charge weight is unbeneficial. When you start shooting half MOA, the chronograph is useless but for bragging rights and , estimating only, trajectory. I regularly shoot <.25 MOA with iron sights and my M1A. Sometimes a little more when the scotch tape slips either on the muzzle or the target.

I care a lot more about the consistency of the velocity than the velocity itself. At longer ranges it will become a factor (vertical strings).

 

[Steve Marshall]

Many experimenters over the years have come to the conclusion that the best loads shoot the best groups. Ha Ha. Low ES and low SD sometimes coincide with the best groups, sometimes not. You've already determined your rifle is a keeper. Are you willing to burn out the barrel for another tenth less MOA?

 

[Hoon]

Will be testing with the 75GR BTHP next week.

Just finished shooting a dozen groups with the 75GR BTHP, average size for a 3-shot group at 200yds was .65 MOA.

Average size with the 68GR (not counting the 2 fliers) was .499 MOA, and those were all 4 and 5 shot groups.

Maybe with a faster twist the heavier bullet would show the same level of accuracy, but out of my rifle it just does not perform as well as the 68GR BTHP. None of the groups showed a hope of matching the .28 MOA 5-shot group with the best charge (24.6gr Varget)

The 75GR A-MAX does not stabilize...so load development for this rifle is done.

I might try a few different primers to see if i can get the SD down, but that's about it.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I've got a Savage Model 12 in .223 with a heavy fluted stainless barrel with a 1:7 twist. It loves the 77gr SMKs but my best goups have been with 73gr Bergers.

 

[xtry51]

Mmmmm Bergers. I've run some in .308 with awesome results. I don't have a gun in .223 to justify them.

 

[Hoon]

maybe try benchrest primers?

BR-4's reduced the SD by 13...still pretty poor though.

	WSR	BR-4
Avg	2805.333	2780.2
ES	101	106
SD	55.52177	42.15685

 

[mac1911]

I'm just curious how far of a distance your planning on pushing the 68s.
Your getting 1" groups at 200 yards.... so my question is. At this point is the crony info that important?
I only get past 200 yards when I shoot NRA highpower SR . Iron sights and a big target.
My current load is 75gn A max and or 75gn hornady match. Both I can shoot from the rest to .8-1"
I really didn't go much beyond that load as I'm shooting positions, with iron sights and fading eyes.
I might try F class if they hold reduced distance matches (600) in 2016