Hypothetical Question

[depicts]

A married man with a LTC A ALP in MA. with a brain injury is declared mentally incompetent and put in a long term rehabilitation hospital with no chance of recovery.

He owns a half dozen rimfire rifles and single shot shotguns, some are C&R eligable, which his wife wants to get rid of now that the husband is in an institution. She also has a LTC A, ALP, but because of the law that only allows the private sale of 4 guns a year without an 01 FFL, is there any way she can transfer ownership of the guns to someone else, or sell them to someone else, without an FFL involved to save the badly needed money paid for transfers for her family?

What if she gave the guns to someone, and then she moved out of state, and said for the person to keep the rifles? Could that be legally done by just registering them with FA10 forms, or would the wife have to be found and sign the forms. Can someone legally give away more than 4 guns a year in that situation?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Sorry to hear of this tragedy.

IANAL, but we discussed "powers of attorney" before and as long as the registered gun owner is alive (regardless of competency), he'd have to sign the forms for transfer. That seemed to be the consensus as I recall . . . CHSB isn't likely to accept a power of attorney signature.

Only other legal option is for her to bring them to an FFL and have the transfers done that way. If it's a dealer that her Husband (or you if you're inclined) did a lot of business with, the FFL may negotiate a cheaper transfer fee. It's worth asking.

Now, if these guns aren't registered with the state (private sales pre-1998 or dealer sales prior to 1986) . . . since the state destroyed all those old records . . . If the Wife did the transfers for these guns under her name/LTC, it's not really cricket but who (MA) would know who previously owned them? BTW, the 4/year rule is CALENDAR YEAR, therefore 4 before 12/31/06 and another 4 during 2007!

As for just leaving them with someone and later have that person just register them, that's not legal either!

A lawyer is more expensive than the dealer transfer fees, but they might have a better (not cheaper) work around.

Also be aware that some (not all) chiefs if they get wind that a LTC holder is no longer mentally competent, will revoke the LTC and send someone to confiscate the guns. I can tell you that it has been done in MA, hopefully by damn few chiefs, but nonetheless something to be aware of. IIRC JonJ has cited MGL that DEMANDS that if a LTC is suspended/revoked for any reason the PD MUST confiscate all guns/ammo/components/mags. In that case any other LTC holder in the household has to jump thru many hoops and only then MAY get back some/all (if you are lucky) of what's confiscated . . . and if the PD put them in bonded storage the fees will likely exceed the cost of transfers by many times!

Good luck!

 

[highlander]

The firearms WOULD have to be confiscated EVEN if the wife has a LTC-A? That makes no sense whatsoever but then again this the People's Republic.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Worse, even if the guns are OWNED by the Wife!

Do an Advanced Search here and you might find it, JonJ posted it and yes, I was surprised too.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The "Limit 4" is per "calendar year", not "elapsed year". If she can get 4 transferred before the end of 2006, she can transfer the rest after 1/1/7.

 

[depicts]

LenS in my hypothetical question, the wife claimed them as community property, the police allowed her to keep them. Some of the guns were purchased by them together, you know, your money is my money in a marriage, and some were purchased by her alone. A couple of guns were from the 1920's, family heirlooms. A grandfathers Sweet Sixteen Browning was kept by the familly as well as a Savage 30-30 from 1924, hypotheticaly!!

 

[Len-2A Training]

Regrettably MGLs don't recognize "community property" in cases like this. Even passing ownership between spouses (with both legally licensed) is much more complex than in most other states.

I'm with you, what's mine is also my Wife's . . . I have no problem with it, but MA doesn't recognize it that way.

 

[depicts]

Well Len, thanks for the info. I thought the situation would be the same as if the guy died.

Now if I ever run into someone who needs that information I'll be able to give them the straight poop. You never know.

Thanks,

Bill

 

[drgrant]

Sorry to hear of this tragedy.

IANAL, but we discussed "powers of attorney" before and as long as the registered gun owner is alive (regardless of competency), he'd have to sign the forms for transfer. That seemed to be the consensus as I recall . . . CHSB isn't likely to accept a power of attorney signature.

Len, what do you mean "accept" it? Do you mean that CHSB is going to
send them a nasty note in the mail if she lists herself as the seller and
just sells/transfers the gun to another licensed person?

Reason I ask is because I've heard of people doing pretty dubious
things with FA-10s, and have never heard of them ever getting a
response from CHSB on whatever it was that they did. The impression
that I get from a lot of people is that CHSB is just a black hole where
FA-10s go to.

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mike,

I've had "power of attorney" before and this means using the man's name, signing her name at the bottom "as Power of Attorney for <his name>" or something like this (don't recall, it was ~20 years ago). What I meant is that CHSB "may" kick the FA-10 back as "invalid". I just don't know, but I think that Scriv came up with that response in the prior discussion.

If she does the transfer as herself and CHSB does not have any record of who owned it before (because they destroyed the records), there is no way that they would ever know who owned it or not. Thus, they won't question the FA-10.

 

[dwarven1]

On a similar note, what would be the potential ramifications of, let's say, a man whose father has had to go into a nursing home and is more than slightly non compos mentis... leaving the son to deal with the very old, large gun collection that he had? All of which were in his possession long before 1998 and in fact, probably before 1968?

Would this hypothetical son have to file FA10's on all of these items, or (since he has his own LTC) should he just keep his mouth shut and not worry about it?

 

[securityboy]

Ok I know some here get thier hackles up about the letter of the law...but lets talk reality...and maybe because of that the mods will pull this...
Just have the current owner (ie guy in nursing home) sell them all on FA10's wether it is 1 gun or 100, and even if it means someone needs to "help" him sign the form...the CHSB won't be kicking in the door of the nursing home to get him,nor would a DA indite, and if they do there is NO JUDGE or JURY that will convict him for selling off his collection to pay his medical bills...And further if the only violation is selling more than 4 guns year (chapter 140 S128A) I don't see any penalty in that regulation for violating it...(ie it sould say Whoever violates any provision of this section shall be punished by a fine of not less than $XXXnor more than $XXX etc). Maybe the penalty exists someplace else, but that really isn't my point, I simply say use some common sence...

OK and I will add this since it seems to be a problem...yep I can't spell...if this weren't the internet I would run spell check...but most people out in the real world can deal with my spelling, those who can't are the same types who get hung up on other small insignificant details, and think CHSB will be breaking down the doors of a nursing home to bring this guy in...

OK and this is a serious question...Scrivner you are a lawyer correct? Seriously what is the penalty for violating Chapter 140 S128A?

 

[Scrivener]

Anyone foolish enough to follow the advice of the barely-literate and ill-informed is severely lacking in "common sence" and deserves the consequences of their irresponsible actions.

 

[depicts]

Scrivener, I was hoping you'd make a comment on this subject. I thought you might have some other good advice beside not listening to barely-literate and ill-informed people.

I'm assuming most of us AREN'T sure what happens in a situation like this.

It's too bad the guy had a frontal lobe destroyed. It's too bad the wife doesn't know what to do. It's too bad Massachusetts laws aren't a bit easier to understand, and failing that....it's a shame I couldn't get either of them to hire you for correct legal advice.

Unfortunately, with the husbands illness, the family home was lost, the wife has to move with her pregnant daughter, and I'm sure that one of the low priorities in her spinning mind right now concerning how to dispose of the firearms.

Like you said in another thread, you can only answer so many questions for free legal advice on an internet forum. I understand that. That's why I don't volunteer answers when photography questions are asked...it can be a very time consuming habit, and I like to get away from my work when home.

Thanks Scrivener.