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Hunting target scope for SCAR 17s?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by *chris*, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    I called a math nerd friend of mine , if he could shoot he would be dangerous.
    308, 175 grain, 2650fps his rough answer
    2.85lbs/sec impulse.
    10-13fps
    17-19 ftlbs , that should cover your variables a bit.
    i asked if he could figure out the BCG . Yup i just need weight , speed , spring specs ect and I can get you s rough idea.
    He laughed though and said theres not a lot of energy there few lbs ?
    The double or reverse recoil is tough on older scopes and cheap scopes. This is not a mystery but todays scopes are better even the cheap ones. In my mind if it failed on a scar it would fail on a lesser rifle just might take some more time.

    Fun stuff, really. Again if i spent $3k on a rifle I would most likely either buy 2 scopes for my needs or one nice scope.
     
  2. 1776

    1776 NES Member

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    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  3. wiryone1

    wiryone1

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    FAL’s and SCAR’s are known to go through scopes like toilet paper. It’s not the rearward recoil of the gun, but the second forward recoil of the bolt closure. It will eventually break the glue bonds internally that most scopes have holding the glass in position. You need a seriously overbuilt scope to survive a decent round count. And then having a no questions warranty is nice for when it fails.

    An Elcan or Acog is the only thing I would trust to never break.
     
  4. wiryone1

    wiryone1

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    I would consider the Primary Arms Platinum 1-8x ACSS. Word is that it is built in the same factory as the Nightforce and Leupold Mk IV. The high end Japanese optics factory LOW, Light Optics Works. It has a warranty similar to Vortex, and is in the $1150-1300 range instead of $2200-3000.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  5. PappyM3

    PappyM3 NES Member

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    You should be able to hit a basketball at 300 yards with iron sights, and you don’t need to be an operator. Even an average shooter should be able to shoot 6” groups at 300 yards with an optic, even as low as a 1x red dot sight.

    As far as using the scope as a spotting scope, I do get the desire to have additional magnification to check things out like the antlers etc.. but you’re going to be spending a pretty penny to add a get feature. It’d probably be cheaper and more reliable to have a separate monocular or binoculars.

    Take a peek at the Trijicon Accupoints for something of good quality that is more affordable than the night forces. It won’t be as durable as an ACOG, but the adjustments are accurate and repeatable. The fiber optic illuminated reticle is adjustable and always provides enough lume. As the sun gets brighter, so too does the dot. Plus, they’re on sale at third party vendors often.
     
  6. *chris*

    *chris* NES Member

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    So I called EuroOptic and they suggested the NIGHTFORCE SHV 4-14X50 which is a little over my budget at $1290 but within reach.

    Both the Vortex and Nightforce customer service folks suggested approx 4x14 scope for what I am looking to do. Blind hunting and possibly back of the truck hunting.

    When I referred to a basketball size target, I am referring to the kill zone on a small/mid-sized deer (e.g. heart and lungs) I know from actual experience, I will not take a shot at a deer 250 yards away with a 6x scope.

    Chris
     
  7. Tallen

    Tallen

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    So, some of the energy from the first is stored in the spring, so the first impulse is lower than it would be with a locked bolt. That energy is partially returned when the spring puts the BCG back into battery but there are heat losses because no spring is perfect. Therefore the total energy put into the scope is lower than a bolt rifle and the only difference is the direction of the various forces involved.

    The Scar (and FAL) may be a scope-eater, but I have a RFB which uses the same tilting block design as a FAL and have had no issues with the cheap Vortex Diamondback on it after a few thousand rounds.
     
  8. Mesatchornug

    Mesatchornug

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    This is effectively a dynamics/vibrations question. It's not about force, but about the frequency of opposed, sharp impulses.
     
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  9. Tallen

    Tallen

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    If this is true then it should be a problem that can be replicated on any semiautomatic rifle, or at least a larger subset than the Scar 17 and FAL.
     
  10. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Come on down to a cmp at pembroke we will get you confident at hitting a basket ball at 200 yards with iron sights. You can use a club M1 garand and some club ammo or your scar? If your hunting from a fixed position from a rest a 250 yard shot with 1x6 ,2x9 2.5x8x32 duplex reticle should be ok once your confident with you skills and equipment
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  11. rcwhat

    rcwhat

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    I don’t want to be condescending but you’re thinking about the impulses wrong. Also, I was wrong about the impulses as there are actually at least three with a gas operated semi. The first impulse is the same on a bolt or semi (the round firing), the return spring doesn’t come into effect until the second impulse. The next impulse is when the projectile clears the gas port and is almost out of the barrel of the gun. This impulse is also rearward and transfers the kinetic energy of the gas pushing the projectile into pushing the bcg rearward and turns that into stored energy in the recoil/return spring. The next impulse is the spring turning that stored energy into kinetic and slamming the bcg home while stripping a new round from the magazine. The impulses are not occurring at the same time. The recoil spring has zero effect on the first impulse.
     
  12. Mesatchornug

    Mesatchornug

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    Different mechanisms will have different impulse profiles - cam profile, spring rate, spring preload, stroke length, lock time, dwell time, etc. will all contribute. Changing any of these variables will change the behavior of the action. Maybe you could smooth it out if you stiffened the spring or choked down the gas...but the designers of these guns apparently decided that they weren't worried about that.

    Maybe FN has stock in optics companies?
     
  13. wiryone1

    wiryone1

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    Vibrations involve forces. An inpulse is a change in momentum produced by a force over a time interval. In a gun with a piston above or below the plane the bore makes, those forces are not directly opposing. An AR-15/10 (Stoner) is still essentially a piston gun. The piston is the back end of the bolt and the forces are for practicle purposes in-line.
     
  14. *chris*

    *chris* NES Member

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    Thanks for your offer, I am confident with my skills when punching paper with my Garand with iron sights, but when I am shooting a live animal, I want every reasonable advantage for a clean kill.

    Still torn between the 1x8 vs the 3x14 magnification.

    The person at Nightforce said the reason the Scar is so hard on scopes is the bolt is much heavier than most semi-auto firearms which makes it softer shooting for follow up shots, but harder on the optics. Once I get this rifle settled out, I will bring my Garand, AR-10 and the Scar to the range to figure out which one feels to have more recoil.

    Chris
     
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  15. Squib308

    Squib308 NES Member

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    the two biggest scams of modern firearms optics:

    1) variable magnification is better than fixed magnification. absurd.
    2) FFP is "better" than SFP. even more absurd.

    --
    as noted above an elcan or acog will survive on a SCAR or FAL although these are prismatic optics that don't use an erector assembly like conventional glass. personally i would go with an acog 3.5 or 4x over the nightforce SHV. i have not been impressed by the SHV glass clarity. i consider it on par with my $300 SWFA SS fixed mag optics.

    the NX8 is not a precision optic. these types of 1-8x FFP's are a disaster on 8x as the reticle is simply too large relative to target. if the goal is to do any precision work I would not run an NX8 FFP on a SCAR 17. same goes for the trijicon accupower 1-8x FFP that has what i woudl consider an un-usable reticle on 8x.

    another great budget option is a primary arms 3x or 5x prism. i have a few of these and am very pleased. excellent optical clarity.

    Primary Arms SLx3 Compact 3x32 Gen II Prism Scope - ACSS-5.56-CQB-M2 Reticle PAC3X-GENII-ACSS-5.56
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  16. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    You should work on shrinking your kill zone. Especially with hogs. i have yet to go hog hunting but those i know that have had more thsn one hog that did not go down well. Especially those that took the behind the shoulder typical "deer" lung shot.
    In a some what "rushed" shot low mag would be better. My dads old "hunting " scope. Does not have magnification rather a "yardage range finder" luepould 2.5x8x32 duplex.
    You simple put the thick part of the reticle across the bodylength of the average deer (30" ) you dial up/down the "mag X" until the deer fits in the space(s). Now you have a a ideer how far this is. Although good luck doing that under hunting conditions unless you have time to size up your deer.
    Then is a matter of put the cross hairs in the middle of your kill zone and for most cartridges from 223 -8mm you can zero for a few inches high at 100 yards and stay with in your kill zone from 0-250ish yards. As far as hunting goes. i did very little except squirrel and rabbit. Mostly with a pellet gun. I can tell you unless your shooting from a well supported rest magX does nothing but force you to look for your target. My dad and his friends bagged many deer and those with sscopes where usually 4x
     
  17. *chris*

    *chris* NES Member

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    Can't wait to get this bad boy mounted up.

    Chris


    IMG_0639.jpeg
     
  18. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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  19. *chris*

    *chris* NES Member

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    This scope is the real deal, this is my sighting in target at 50 yards. This is 10 shots off a rest.

    The 100 and 200/300 yard range will have to wait for the next trip.

    The Scar is the softest shooting .308 I have ever shot. The trigger is quite possibly worse than the trigger in the Tavor and that is saying a lot!

    Chris


    9lB+JFcQSZOqCvEXxI4kUw.jpg
     
  20. Cuz

    Cuz NES Member

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    I put a Burris XTR II 1-8x FFP on mine. It’s the perfect scope for a Scar 17S. It covers all the bases and is a very good quality scope.
     
  21. ryandarr1979

    ryandarr1979

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    Trijicon Accupoint TR25 1-6x24. Optics Planet and Midway routinely have them for sale under $900.
     
  22. Cuz

    Cuz NES Member

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    The solution to your trigger problem is the Geissele Super Scar Trigger:
    Triggers - Lower Parts - Rifle Parts

    I put one in mine and it made a big difference. They go on sale a few times a year. With that NF scope you have mounted, you will be completing an awesome package with the Geissele trigger.
     
  23. Artifact

    Artifact NES Member

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    Bolt action exerts one way recoil. Gas piston has to retract the bolt back to chamber the next round exerting all sorts of vibrations as it applies forward and rearward inertia, as it travels through its trajectory both ways inside the firearm/upper.
     
  24. jkelly1229

    jkelly1229

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    Definitely not lol, warranty work is no bueno for share holders
     
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  25. jron

    jron NES Member

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    Um how about the large mass of the bolt carrier cycling back and forth with each round fired. The optic sits right on top of the bolt. Scars are well known to be optics killers.

    Please tell me you are doubling down on trolling.
     
  26. Queen Bee

    Queen Bee NES Member

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    I have owned a scar 17 for a while now. In my experience, primary arms.. sucks, but i have good experience with Athlon. I currently have an Athlon 6-24x FFP scope on my scar and have had no issues. Check them out. Good on your wallet without sending you into debt to get glass on your rifle.

    Argos BTR 6-24×50 APMR | Precision Rifle Scope
     
  27. Al-Jim19

    Al-Jim19

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    Not trying to derail this thread but this is spot on...

    I’d love to talk more about guns and shooting than random news articles loosely related to guns and shooting.

    Back on topic, if I had the coin for a SCAR I’d probably spring for a svelte optic for my $3000 rifle.

    My uninformed opinion is that primary arms mid value scopes are good, maybe their more expensive ones are good too.

    I’d go for an acog if I was into a scar.
     
  28. wiryone1

    wiryone1

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    Depends on what Primary Arms you are talking about. Do you mean the Platinum Series or the others? The Platinum Series is built in Light Optics Works in Japan along side other medium-high end stuff from other Manufacturers.

    Bang for the buck, the higher end Athlon stuff if really making waves. I don’t know what model you have. I have seen turret tracking tests being performed on the higher end Athlons that put them on par with the best German glass.



    One thing the whole general glass choice advice topic for a rifle gets into is intend use. This is not directed at you Queen Bee or even the OP. But each person already has an idea about certain things they want or need in an optic apart from “quality”. And if you say one piece of glass is better then another what does that mean? Are we talking turret tracking or optical quality or physical durability?

    When I personally look at a rifle like a Scar 17, I think short to medium range DMR. I personally would not be dialing in long range firing solutions. I don’t have an interest in 24-30 magnification ranges or shooting the smallest groups at 100 yards. To me, an ideal scope for a Scar is 1-8 with robust build that will not self destruct too fast or maybe a ACOG. In either case, I want to use a good BDC reticle like the ACSS.

    The “best” optic is hard because you don’t know what the other person wants out of the rifle. Their are personal factors that weigh in heavily to the decision.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  29. JRT

    JRT NES Member

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  30. rcwhat

    rcwhat

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    I could think of at least 10 lpvo’s id take before that. Hell I’d take the razorE over that.
     

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