House Review of S2284 (formerly SB 2265)

[atilla]

But the fact that we didn't get screwed even worse is, when you think about it, nothing short of a miracle in this Commie dictatorship ruled by a pinhead who salivates at the sight of his close friend sitting in the oval office issuing unconstitutional "executive orders"...

It's NOT a good bill. But .......

you gonna be sending linsky, deleo, deval, and marsha fruit baskets with a long-winded note attached now? i don't have the time or energy to type up one of your stories, so here's the short version.

thank you sirs/madam for not violating the sanctity of my rectum harder than you just did, i sincerely appreciate the thought you put in to oppressing me and i can't wait for you to do it again next year.

i'll be here. waiting.

sincerely your friend forever,

glockjock

 

[David Balkus]

Have you ever been to a 209a hearing..Perponderance of the evidence is such a low standard..Because he said it was denied would meet that...From what I have seen.

I think what the state is doing with this FID suitability standard is 'test driving' a legal scheme that they might want to use once a court forces them to deal with the problem of totally discretionary LTCs. There are people in the state and on Beacon Hill who know EXACTLY where the vulnerabilities lie. The revised FID statute does give licensing authorities some discretion over issuance of FIDs but it shifts some (but not enough) of the burden to the licensing authorities to convince a court that an applicant is 'unsuitable'. This will be their first option for a quick fix when a court hits them over the broad discretion that chiefs have over LTCs.

 

[Dr. CCW]

FID is the "gateway drug" to gun ownership and LTC. If you want to cull the herd, you go after the young. A smaller herd is easier to attack and more difficult to defend. That has been the long-term strategy in this state.

I think this bill is all about the FID. The rest is distraction and cover.

 

[jefftk]

He also touched on the number of people who came out to the hearings pro 2A where 7-8 years ago you didn't see that many because we gun owners figured we were screwed anyway (I think some of it is the internet allows us to organize)

Well, good thing we all didn't listen to the naysayers who repeatedly told us we were wasting our time. Hopefully they have now seen the light and will refrain from the self defeating comments next time.

- - - Updated - - -

I apologize, you were right. I misread your statement as a repetition of the original proposal to list all guns you DO have at renewal, which I've seen erroneously repeated a number of times.

Failure to pay proper attention on my part here... sorry!

It happens,

 

[xcom]

Have you ever been to a 209a hearing..Perponderance of the evidence is such a low standard..Because he said it was denied would meet that...From what I have seen.

THis, I am also unclear as to if it is ex parte or not. Granted, I have not finished my redline of the bill.

 

[Palladin]

How many days left for governor Patrick to sign this? If not, it was all just a futile exercise.



http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/gov_deval_patrick_has_favorabl.html

DoVeryLittle's options:

Within 10 days he signs it
Within 10 days he vetoes it
After 10 days, it automatically becomes law.

So unless he vetoes it, it's good to go

 

[Bob P]

i am looking forward to "one gun a month" so i can start saving $$ again.

Damn, if that passes I'm gonna go broke trying to buy one a month.

 

[Billsail]

Originally Posted by Billsail
If he doesn't sign it, it becomes law anyway. The only other outcome would be if he vetoes it.

No it does not. Look up the term "pocket veto". I thought like you did and in discussion with someone else, checked this out. He must sign it to become law since the legislative formal session is over.

Yup, I remembered that, after I posted, but was too lazy to correct the post.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Have you ever been to a 209a hearing..Perponderance of the evidence is such a low standard..Because he said it was denied would meet that...From what I have seen.

I wasn't suggesting that the FID suitability scheme they're trying out is correct. It's not because the standard of review is too low. Denying someone a fundamental right needs to require 'clear and convincing evidence' that someone would be a danger to themselves or others.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Anyone here a member of the "Guns of MA" Facebook page? Some of the legal questions there will blow your mind.

View attachment 110766 was the only (funny) thing I saw when I did a google of that term for facebook.com. Didn't find anything else relevant to MA.
Better URL?

I actually have both an FID and an LTC. My employer, who is my LTC issuing authority, has seen fit to play games with suitability in employment-related matters.

I have an FID from another licensing authority, the town I live in, so that I could keep my non-large cap firearms should I get caught in my PD's unsuitable crosshairs.

Good grief!

Some of us don't own all large cap stuff.

Again, as someone who has an FID as a pseudo insurance policy against suitability, that insurance is now mostly ineffective.

As far as I was concerned 1998 made the FID useless for numerous reasons. At that point my Wife and I just let ours expire naturally and stayed with the LTC rather than maintain both.

I apologize, you were right. I misread your statement as a repetition of the original proposal to list all guns you DO have at renewal, which I've seen erroneously repeated a number of times.

Failure to pay proper attention on my part here... sorry!

You still may be right . . . continue paying attention. It was in DeLeo's "release" of what was allegedly in the original bill. It won't take much for EOPS to put a list requirement in the CMR that will get written after the bill is signed. DeLeo's intent is perfectly clear by his press release, and there is no real oversight on CMRs, so he can slide that in without all the pushback he received on the bill itself.

 

[GlockJock]

you gonna be sending linsky, deleo, deval, and marsha fruit baskets with a long-winded note attached now? i don't have the time or energy to type up one of your stories, so here's the short version.

Another one who is so "busy" enjoying all the town fairs up in NH that he "doesn't have time" to read any post longer than two sentences, so he craps on anyone who does, and on everyone who has an opinion differing from his.

Whatever.

 

[LoginName]

Ten days is the 10th
Ten business days is the 14th

However, who knows when the bill "hit his desk" so when does the clock start ticking?

It should have been on his desk no later than midnight of the 31st.

He has 10 days to sign it not including Sundays or holidays... so midnight the 12th is the deadline.

 

[atilla]

Another one who is so "busy" enjoying all the town fairs up in NH that he "doesn't have time" to read any post longer than two sentences, so he craps on anyone who does, and on everyone who has an opinion differing from his.

Whatever.

actually i've been enjoying open carry, machine guns, suppressors, and unrestricted freedom to buy, carry, and own any rifle, handgun, shotgun, machine gun, NFA item, magazine, etc. that i'd like.

your posts suck, that's why i don't read them. i'm not too busy, i could read them if i wanted--but i don't want to.

you're an incoherent mess spilling out verbal diarrhea as to how you justify your stay in MA and how you willingly accept the decisions of your overlords there. you are a true subject.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

Another one who is so "busy" enjoying all the town fairs up in NH that he "doesn't have time" to read any post longer than two sentences, so he craps on anyone who does, and on everyone who has an opinion differing from his.

Whatever.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

your posts suck, that's why i don't read them. i'm not too busy, i could read them if i wanted--but i don't want to.

 

[jasons]

Enough with the bullshit. Stay on topic. Use the ignore button if you must.

 

[oldsoldier29]

actually i've been enjoying open carry, machine guns, suppressors, and unrestricted freedom to buy, carry, and own any rifle, handgun, shotgun, machine gun, NFA item, magazine, etc. that i'd like.

your posts suck, that's why i don't read them. i'm not too busy, i could read them if i wanted--but i don't want to.

you're an incoherent mess spilling out verbal diarrhea as to how you justify your stay in MA and how you willingly accept the decisions of your overlords there. you are a true subject.

Because not all of us run away, then shit on those who choose to fight.

 

[goodzilla]

Because not all of us run away, then shit on those who choose to fight.

 

[Win]

Some funny reading in here. "Sanctity of rectum" made me giggle out loud when I read it. I think what many of the folks in Mass find frustrating is that folks from freer states write things like the proposed legislation "is crap" or "if it doesn't apply to you you're fine with it." Of course much of the proposed legislation is crap and of course we're not fine with it. I think what would be more helpful and constructive is if folks from freer states offered suggestions on how we could have handled the proposed legislation better. From what I saw of the original gun bill to what it is today, the organizations and citizens in Mass did a fine job removing many of the more egregious proposed laws. What could/should we have done differently?

 

[kingfisher]

Come 1/11/2015 courts and PDs are going to have to starting dealing with a much broader spectrum of license appeals.

And I believe I read that PDs will have to accept mailed-in LTC applications and mail back receipts for the $100 fee. This will be very different for some police departments who input your information into a computer during the interview and currently will not even look at a paper application!

 

[yanici]

And I believe I read that PDs will have to accept mailed-in LTC applications and mail back receipts for the $100 fee. This will be very different for some police departments who input your information into a computer during the interview and currently will not even look at a paper application!

I'd still go in person, if only to get my written receipt to prove that I reupped.

 

[late08]

So is this thing going to get signed into law or not?

If it does not, I assume we have to start from scratch again when its proposed next year?

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I'd still go in person, if only to get my written receipt to prove that I reupped.

What if your PD tells you can come in to apply six months from now? When that happens you'll want to mail your application in certified mail, return receipt requested.

 

[Squire]

You still may be right . . . continue paying attention. It was in DeLeo's "release" of what was allegedly in the original bill. It won't take much for EOPS to put a list requirement in the CMR that will get written after the bill is signed. DeLeo's intent is perfectly clear by his press release, and there is no real oversight on CMRs, so he can slide that in without all the pushback he received on the bill itself.

This is very troubling. Who reviews the Regs. for consistency with the law before it goes into affect (at which point the courts get involved when a reg is broken that may be inconsistent with the law)?

If this is happening in the slightest (a ****ing comma out of place) the People should go ballistic on those responsible.

LenS, are their other examples of this, or is this a hypothetical?

 

[hv55maxx]

And I believe I read that PDs will have to accept mailed-in LTC applications and mail back receipts for the $100 fee. This will be very different for some police departments who input your information into a computer during the interview and currently will not even look at a paper application!

cite please? my town can be difficult to get ahold of the licensing officer as i have heard hear-say of his counterpart on another shift unplugging the phone and hanging out down the street at a cafe for his whole shift. when the cafe cruiser does this, the phone rings and rings and rings for the licensing officer. would love to just mail in an app (hmm, i think i did that for my NH non res???)

 

[jasons]

cite please?

There is nothing that I know of in the existing law that precludes mailing in the app (though some PDs have "policies" that don't allow it.) The new law specifically calls out mail as a valid way to submit the application.

SECTION 31. Paragraph (2) of said section 129B of said chapter 140, as so appearing, is hereby amended by adding the following 2 sentences:- The licensing authority shall provide to the applicant a receipt indicating that it received the applicant’s application. The receipt shall be provided to the applicant within 7 days by mail if the application was received by mail or immediately if the application was made in person; provided, however, that the receipt shall include the applicants’ name, address, current firearm identification card number, if any, the current card’s expiration date, if any, the date when the application was received by the licensing authority, the name of the licensing authority and its agent that received the application, the licensing authority’s address and telephone number, the type of application, and whether it is an application for a new card or for renewal of an existing card; and provided further, that a copy of the receipt shall be kept by the licensing authority for not less than 1 year and a copy shall be furnished to the applicant if requested by the applicant.

Here's a link to the current law for context: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section129b


Assuming this passes, I don't see why anyone would use anything but certified mail to apply or renew.

 

[Bison]

But then came SandyHook, and the game REALLY changed. And, for us, changed for the worse. And while you, I, and everyone else pro-2A knows it was an isolated crime of opportunity (and incredible stupidity/ignorance by a parent), the nation changed dramatically that afternoon. Then the crocodile-tears by the Kenyan Confiscator-in-Chief a few days later was worthy of an emmy...The whole game changed that week, and changed for the worse for us 2A-ers.

...

Didn't most of us, IN REALITY, think that this "process" was gonna suck even WORSE, especially given the mood of the country over "G-G-G-GUNS!!!!"??? Pepper spray legal? I figured they'd go the other way and restricted RAID, Black Flag, or even friggin' PAM cooking spray. Seriously, you KNOW state senator Creem-face probably has that one, or something similar, already written up for the next go-round over this...

No, the game did not change. The communist states used the opportunity to seize more power while the free states told Obama and congress to leave them alone. The country as a whole does not want more gun control; it wants less. It is only in communist states that gun control has any traction. And even in our communist state, there really isn't that much desire for more gun control.

The communist have miscalculated how far patriots, libertarians, individualists, etc. can be pushed. Most of the country is done with their nonsense. It will come to MA eventually, but there are a lot of people still asleep here ...

 

[The5thDentist]

Sorry, no webinars or free lunches. I've got too much blood, sweat and tears into this stuff to give it away. As it is, I give away a tremendous amount on here, much more than a wise businessman would do.

You'll have to attend a seminar or arrange for the seminar to be held at your gun club (I did 3 of these in May) for a flat fee, thus cost/person was peanuts (or club absorbed it).

PM sent.

 

[Billsail]

There is nothing that I know of in the existing law that precludes mailing in the app (though some PDs have "policies" that don't allow it.) The new law specifically calls out mail as a valid way to submit the application.




Here's a link to the current law for context: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section129b


Assuming this passes, I don't see why anyone would use anything but certified mail to apply or renew.

This is undoubtedly an improvement for those seeking to submit their application to a non-responsive PD. They must notify the applicant within seven days of receipt of the application. However, it seems there is nothing compelling them to schedule appointments, or submit applications to the proper authorities, for review, in a timely manner? I don't see any wording that would alter an anti chief's MO. What's to stop them from dragging their feet, after receipt?

 

[PaulD]

Some of us don't own all large cap stuff.

Again, as someone who has an FID as a pseudo insurance policy against suitability, that insurance is now mostly ineffective.

Fair point. However, I think it's important to attack CLEO discretion for LTCs and it seems to me, this makes it easier.

I have to ask though, why not get an LTC in the town you reside in? Or are you locked out of that due to your employment situation?