Healey "closing the loophole" letter to gun dealers

[42!]

Just a nit... do you mean that Al takes a plea bargain with no jail time, but becomes a convicted felon? A CWOF, once it expires, is not a conviction.

A CWOF on this won't make you a Fed PP but chances of ever seeing an LTC of FID in MA are slim to none.

 

[exo]

There has been some discussion of this in some other threads around here. I originally thought, as you do, that CWOF was effectively "don't make me see you here again and we will forget about the whole thing". It turns out that a CWOF usually comes with an admission to sufficient facts which then carries the same weight as a guilty plea.

I believe it is possible to get a CWOF without admitting sufficient facts, but it is less common.

If I am wrong about that, someone please correct me as I misunderstood something.

------------------------------------
Ok,I think I misunderstood...

This thread:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...s-with-a-CWOF?highlight=cwof+sufficient+facts

...goes into it a bit more starting around post 11 or so.

You might be right in that CWOF might not make you a federally prohibited person, but it certainly will in MA.

It looks like Al's two year legal nightmare gets to extend to the rest of his life...

Even in MA, once the CWOF has expired that does not make Al statutorily prohibited - but his chief will probably deny LTC (and now FID - thanks MA legislature and GOAL compromising!) on suitability grounds.

Your underlying point still stands though - the otherwise law abiding citizen has his life ruined, and the recidivist criminal is largely unaffected.

 

[Mass-diver]

A CWOF on this won't make you a Fed PP but chances of ever seeing an LTC of FID in MA are slim to none.

Yup, tons of examples on NES

You have great faith and hope to chance your rights in the injustice system. I personally think our rights and constitution don't matter a bit. To prove it is the fact we even have to have this type of discussion. This should be the last thing we even have to worry about. Our rights are being trampled upon daily leaving good people to worry if they are felons or not!

Not great faith at all, obviously these are dark times and the odds are not great in any MA court, however with a legit lawyer, and that fact that even by MA standard this shit is so messed up, I think one would have a fighting chance. It's really our only hope.

But, of course, I don't ever have to find out though, there's lots of other stuff I'd rather spend my hard earned money on than this BS.

 

[drgrant]

Al spends the next two years fighting his charges of possessing an assault weapon racking up thousands in legal fees. He is rightly told by his lawyers that it is unlikely a jury will clear him because guns, and a bench trial doesn't look any better. He is convinced to take a CWOF which make him a federally prohibited person and ineligible to ever posses a firearm in any state ever.

Not sure if serious. How many times does someone get offered a CWOF for a full blown gun felony? I doubt he would get even that, it would be more like a full blown felony plea deal- "if you plea out to this felony, we won't send you to jail/suspended sentence/whatever they call it" but he'd still have to eat a felony in the process. Usually CWOFs in MA are reserved for misdafelonies like DUI, CUI, etc. Stuff that the prosecutor knows is risky to take to court fully; but still wants to claim victory on; etc. On misdafelonies they don't have huge sentences and automatic wins with juries. I don't even know if a CWOF is possible on a felony in MA. It might be but I assume the prosecutor doesn't care- because they know they can just hold prison over your head at that point.

ETA: If the guy was offered a CWOF and he didn't take it, he'd be an idiot... because even if he loses his rights in MA, BFD... he can just drive away from the problem.... CWOFs don't make you a PP. (this is why I am wondering if they are even available at the felony level).

-Mike

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

Not sure if serious. How many times does someone get offered a CWOF for a full blown gun felony? I doubt he would get even that, it would be more like a full blown felony plea deal- "if you plea out to this felony, we won't send you to jail/suspended sentence/whatever they call it" but he'd still have to eat a felony in the process. Usually CWOFs in MA are reserved for misdafelonies like DUI, CUI, etc. Stuff that the prosecutor knows is risky to take to court fully; but still wants to claim victory on; etc. On misdafelonies they don't have huge sentences and automatic wins with juries. I don't even know if a CWOF is possible on a felony in MA. It might be but I assume the prosecutor doesn't care- because they know they can just hold prison over your head at that point.

-Mike

Sure, change CWOF in both cases to a guilty plea with no jail time and the scenario still works. The guy who cared about following the law loses everything and the guy who doesn't care loses nothing.

 

[drgrant]

A CWOF on this won't make you a Fed PP but chances of ever seeing an LTC of FID in MA are slim to none.

After getting put through that bullshit nobody would stay in MA, and anyone who does at that point is an idiot. An FID or LTC would be the least of my concerns... not being in MA anymore would be at the top of the list.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Sure, change CWOF in both cases to a guilty plea with no jail time and the scenario still works. The guy who cared about following the law loses everything and the guy who doesn't care loses nothing.

I read the courthouse records in the paper and see all the time people like Bob walking. Felon in possession of a firearm? No problem, we will drop all that and just charge on the driving without a valid registration.

No your scenario sucks because a CWOF is not the same as a full out plea on a felony. With a CWOF Al loses some money. With a full out plea Al loses pretty much everything. It's like comparing getting hit with a paddle 10 or 20 times with getting shot in the head.

-Mike

 

[Mass-diver]

CWOF are offered for felonies AFAIK. I guess it all depends of the details of the hypothetical case we are talking about....but I certainly agree, if you get a CWOF, you would just get out of dodge.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

A CWOF on this won't make you a Fed PP but chances of ever seeing an LTC of FID in MA are slim to none.

WRONG !!! That is a bullshit statement. If you don't know, don't answer !!!!!

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

No your scenario sucks because a CWOF is not the same as a full out plea on a felony. With a CWOF Al loses some money. With a full out plea Al loses pretty much everything. It's like comparing getting hit with a paddle 10 or 20 times with getting shot in the head.

-Mike

Ok, I was operating under a mistaken belief that CWOF had ramifications outside of MA. I misread some finer points about how CWOF works in MA where it can be as damning as a guilty plea. Thankfully that doesn't appear to extend outside of MA.

So, fine, both Bob and Al are offered a guilty plea with no jail time. Bob will take it and it is the same for him as not guilty or CWOF. Al will take it and it will ruin his life.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

CWOF are offered for felonies AFAIK. I guess it all depends of the details of the hypothetical case we are talking about....but I certainly agree, if you get a CWOF, you would just get out of dodge.

CWOF are not offered for felonies .. STOP just stop

 

[42!]

WRONG !!! That is a bullshit statement. If you don't know, don't answer !!!!!

Thanks for letting me know, I'll be sure to tell the judge at my FID denial hearing next month that the CWOF as a reason for denial is wrong. I wish I had know this back in 2014 when the CWOF was given as the reason for my being unsuitable and it was upheld on appeal. I guess it didn't really happen.

CWOF are not offered for felonies .. STOP just stop

Again, really odd. Since the charges were felonies and the ruling was CWOF 2 years then dismissed.

BTW I have both my NH and Utah CC so the CWOF in 1999 really is the only thing on my record.

 

[Mass-diver]

CWOF are not offered for felonies .. STOP just stop

Well, I know people that have been offered them, both as felony reduced (felony probation versus misdemeanor CWOF) or straight CWOF for felonies. I have no idea how common that it is, but it happens.

People have posted on NES about felony CWOF, and it's referenced here (pg. 7):

https://www.masslegalhelp.org/cori/booklets-folder/know-your-cori-rights.pdf

Maybe CHILL out a bit.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Thanks for letting me know, I'll be sure to tell the judge at my FID denial hearing next month that the CWOF as a reason for denial is wrong. I wish I had know this back in 2014 when the CWOF was given as the reason for my being unsuitable and it was upheld on appeal. I guess it didn't really happen.




Again, really odd. Since the charges were felonies and the ruling was CWOF 2 years then dismissed.

BTW I have both my NH and Utah CC so the CWOF in 1999 really is the only thing on my record.

Ok, so no one with a CWOF has a chance in getting their LTC- no restrictions? its not slim to none. It depends on the CLEO. there are police with CWOF that are on the job.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, I know people that have been offered them, both as felony reduced (felony probation versus misdemeanor CWOF) or straight CWOF for felonies. I have no idea how common that it is, but it happens.

People have posted on NES about felony CWOF, and it's referenced here (pg. 7):

https://www.masslegalhelp.org/cori/booklets-folder/know-your-cori-rights.pdf

Maybe CHILL out a bit.

NOPE

 

[Mass-diver]

Ok, so no one with a CWOF has a chance in getting their LTC- no restrictions? its not slim to none. It depends on the CLEO. there are police with CWOF that are on the job.

- - - Updated - - -





NOPE

Hahaha......ok then boss...

 

[42!]

Ok, so no one with a CWOF has a chance in getting their LTC- no restrictions? its not slim to none. It depends on the CLEO. there are police with CWOF that are on the job.

I'm open to hearing first hand accounts of someone who got CWOF on a felony charge and still got an LTC or FID, I did say slim. In fact I've asked this outright in another thread and only got one response. And that looked like a bunch of misdemeanors. So what is you first-hand information?

 

[nhpoke]

I find is somewhat humorous that the New Boston Post article completely misinterpreted the guidance. Can anyone find this section in the actual guidance...

Healey in her July notice stated that prosecution would not apply to “future possession, ownership or transfer of assault weapons by dealers, provided that the dealer has written evidence that the weapons were transferred to the dealer in the Commonwealth prior to July 20, 2016.”

They seem to leave out the

and provided further that a transfer made after July 20, 2016, if any, is made to persons or businesses in states where such weapons are legal.

But you know, there's no confusion about anything that's she's made up as she goes.

They either intentionally misrepresent the quote or don't understand it.

 

[inerlogic]

never mind, the language in her FAQ doesn't even match the language in her enforcement notice....
it's like the blind leading the sightless....

 

[Dadstoys]

It almost seems as though she has received some input from people with a little more knowledge as to the hole she dug herself .
What's going on now looks like some flailing in an effort to dig out some.
I can only hope that if this whole thing does get chucked out, the dealers get together and sue the living piss out of the state for lost revenue and damages.
I wonder if owners could even file a class action suit.
No matter how the court thing goes, Charlie F'ing Baker needs to be run out of this state on a rail.

 

[GM-GUY]

No calling it the 'Justice' system - the 'COURT' system is the only acceptable term - there is no justice there.

 

[JFR2]

She and her minions are reading these threads and are just LOL'ing at us.....

-JR

 

[Waher]

There's probably one overworked underpaid highly abused staffer monitoring NES trying to earn a promotion from people they deeply resent but want power from.

 

[Obie1]

There's probably one overworked underpaid highly abused staffer monitoring NES trying to earn a promotion from people they deeply resent but want power from.

Here's to you:

 

[EJFudd]

She and her minions are reading these threads and are just LOL'ing at us.....

-JR

There's probably one overworked underpaid highly abused staffer monitoring NES trying to earn a promotion from people they deeply resent but want power from.

I just keep thinking over and over again that they really must hate and despise us an awful friggin' lot to do what they did to us... i.e., make 300,000 of us (+/-), the most responsible, law-abiding, whistle clean record and officially/legally vetted adults in all of Massachusetts, into instant felons in possession of dastardly illegal weapons of war (known elsewhere as modern sporting rifles).... throwing aside 22 years of legal history and court decisions and proper law-making protocol to do so. Mama Mia.

Just forget the crazy ever-changing details and the legal absurdity of the situation and leftist politics for a moment and focus on what kind of hate and disrespect for us it must have taken for her and her cohorts to do this to us. It still boggles my mind beyond anything else I can think of in the entire sorry history of this pathetic leftist state and far beyond.

 

[Burgermeister]

I just keep thinking over and over again that they really must hate and despise us an awful friggin' lot to do what they did to us... i.e., make 300,000 of us (+/-), the most responsible, law-abiding, whistle clean record and officially/legally vetted adults in all of Massachusetts, into instant felons in possession of dastardly illegal weapons of war (known elsewhere as modern sporting rifles).... throwing aside 22 years of legal history and court decisions and proper law-making protocol to do so. Mama Mia. Just forget the crazy ever-changing details and the legal absurdity of the situation and leftist politics for a moment and focus on what kind of hate and disrespect for us it must have taken for her and her cohorts to do this to us. It still boggles my mind beyond anything else I can think of in the entire sorry history of this pathetic leftist state and far beyond.

She hates us more than incarcerated criminals....there is hope that an Aaron Hernandez can turn his life around, but legal gun owners...they only care about God, guns and country.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Thanks for letting me know, I'll be sure to tell the judge at my FID denial hearing next month that the CWOF as a reason for denial is wrong. I wish I had know this back in 2014 when the CWOF was given as the reason for my being unsuitable and it was upheld on appeal. I guess it didn't really happen.




Again, really odd. Since the charges were felonies and the ruling was CWOF 2 years then dismissed.

BTW I have both my NH and Utah CC so the CWOF in 1999 really is the only thing on my record.

CWOF are offered for both. Saying they have a very slim chance of getting an LTC is just ridiculous

 

[bfm]

I hope everyone one is still calling their reps.

 

[W.E.C]

Queston,

does ma. Have an office of administrative law?
That some one can file a complaint with ?
that directives are NOT law and can not be enforced?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Queston,

does ma. Have an office of administrative law?
That some one can file a complaint with ?
that directives are NOT law and can not be enforced?

I'd try the Ethics Commission, for exceeding her authority as well as using state funds (website) for pure political gain.

http://www.mass.gov/ethics/

ETA: Complaint webpage info: http://www.mass.gov/ethics/about-the-commission/organization/the-enforcement-division/

They do keep complaint sources very confidential.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

There has been some discussion of this in some other threads around here. I originally thought, as you do, that CWOF was effectively "don't make me see you here again and we will forget about the whole thing". It turns out that a CWOF usually comes with an admission to sufficient facts which then carries the same weight as a guilty plea.

I believe it is possible to get a CWOF without admitting sufficient facts, but it is less common.

If I am wrong about that, someone please correct me as I misunderstood something.

------------------------------------
Ok,I think I misunderstood...

This thread:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...s-with-a-CWOF?highlight=cwof+sufficient+facts

...goes into it a bit more starting around post 11 or so.

You might be right in that CWOF might not make you a federally prohibited person, but it certainly will in MA.

It looks like Al's two year legal nightmare gets to extend to the rest of his life...

"Certainly will in MA"....load of bullshit. There are a few records at play, one being you licensing officer and his viewed on licensing, but "certainly" is a crock.