Gun show loophole VS. Registration

[DanK]

I've been wondering if gun show loophole and registration issues are two sides of the same coin.

There really isn't anything you can do at a gun show that you can't elsewhere. So the main problems I see with closing the "gun show loophole" are 1) difficulty of running background checks and 2) the loss of anonymity. However, I believe it would be possible to organize a system whereby sellers can run background checks as need be.

A lot of folks have expressed objections to firearm registration. So the loss of anonymity does seem to be the greater problem.

So are the objections to closing the gun show loophole based on the buyers' reluctance to submit to a check that could indicate their purchase of a weapon?

Also, while on the topic of gun shows, is the opposition to gun shows based on the fact that, if the seller does not properly check the buyer's ID, a FTF transfer could occur between people from different States? How likely is that in practice?

Turning back to registration, is the same issue of anonymity the key driver to the opposition to registration?

I know these questions were a bit lengthy, and I appreciate you folks sharing your thoughts. This is side of the gun control controversy that I think I understand least.

Thanks!

 

[joehaus]

There is no gun show loophole in Massachusetts.

Loophole meaning you can purchase a firearm without a background check. Since you need a firearms license, which requires a background check, for all purchases.

 

[cekim]

There is no gun show loophole in Massachusetts.

This...

FTF requires FA10...

Ma**h***s cannot sell to anyone without FID/LTC befitting gun sold. No one can sell hand-guns FTF across state lines (per Federal law).

So, as Joe says - there is no "loophole" in MA - period...

In other states - the "loophole" is that FTF do not require registration or check of any kind.

The opposition to registration is twofold:
1. Keeping a database of law-abiding citizens (the only ones who will volunteer their info) serves little-to-no purpose in terms of stopping/solving crime. It offers a minor deterrent to the illegal gun trade, but as we have seen time and time again - this deterrent is not effective. It does not work, it wastes tax money and police time. It potentially violates our 4th and 5th amendment rights...

2. Keeping a database of law-abiding citizens has a terrifying history of oppression and mass-murder by the state and its agents/agencies. Since it serves no real purpose WRT to controlling or solving crime and is highly correlated with confiscation, oppression and genocide (with causality demonstrated in the inability of the people to defend themselves once arms are confiscated using these databases), the only rational conclusion is that it can only be used against law-abiding system and should be stopped, prevented and otherwise avoided where possible through all legal and peaceful means...

The anti's argue (quite incorrectly) that guns have no purpose but to injure and kill so they should be banned.

The real conclusion one draws from history is that gun registration has no purpose but to oppress and kill - it should be banned...

 

[MattEvan]

The anti's argue (quite incorrectly) that guns have no purpose but to injure and kill so they should be banned.

The real conclusion one draws from history is that gun registration has no purpose but to oppress and kill - it should be banned...

What a great quote, if you don't mind I may use it

 

[wahsben]

Registration is the whole idea behind most if not all of gun control.

 

[Bob P]

Confiscation is the whole idea behind most if not all of gun control.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Larry Legend]

Registration is the whole idea behind most if not all of gun control.

+1.

I was chatting with a friend of mine this weekend and the topic came up about licensing, gun control laws, etc. His argument boiled down to "we need to make sure people are responsible for their guns." Which was his reasoning for registrations, gun control laws, etc.

He then tried to make the argument that a gun owner should be responsible for their gun when it gets stolen and used in a crime. I almost threw him out of the car.

I came back with "if your car gets stolen by a drunk driver and he gets into an accident with it, should you be responsible for it?"


Crickets.


When people talk about gun registrations, etc, its all a ploy just to make them feel better. They think that if they know who owns guns, it will make everyone safer. Resistance to registration lists comes from people who study history and know what registration leads to. Turn to England and Canada for the most recent examples.

 

[ArmyOfficer]

I just purchased a firearm while on active duty in Missouri. They did all the paperwork the same as Massachusetts and even called it in for approval. I don't think there's a loophole in gun shows at all. Matter of fact, when I saw the effing billboard behind landsdowne st on the pike I wanted to call an attorney and have it removed or sue!!!

Maybe the old days were like that but it's 2009 and it ain't like it used to be...

 

[jdubois]

There really isn't anything you can do at a gun show that you can't elsewhere.

Exactly. The "gun show loophole" is a euphemism for "private sale loophole". People who are trying to close the "loophole" want to eliminate all sales of guns except through dealers.

 

[wahsben]

Fixed it for you.

Yes, you are correct except the registration comes before confiscation.
As the saying goes it is not about gun control it is about control.

 

[KMaurer]

Exactly. The "gun show loophole" is a euphemism for "private sale loophole". People who are trying to close the "loophole" want to eliminate all sales of guns except through dealers.

As a prelude to eliminating all sales of guns to "civilians", and that only as a prelude to eliminating all possession by "civilians".

Ken

 

[red87930]

I just purchased a firearm while on active duty in Missouri. They did all the paperwork the same as Massachusetts and even called it in for approval. I don't think there's a loophole in gun shows at all. Matter of fact, when I saw the effing billboard behind landsdowne st on the pike I wanted to call an attorney and have it removed or sue!!!

Maybe the old days were like that but it's 2009 and it ain't like it used to be...

I thought the same thing when I had to go into Logan yesterday. It is unreal that that anti-gun lobby group or whoever pays for that billboard has been able to play with the raw ignorance of the unwitting public agagin and again for all the years that has been going on. If that were a pro gun billboard, whatever message were displayed would surely be scrutized and villified to no end. Stupid public make nice sheep.

 

[Dave C]

Gun Show Loop Hole

Thank all of those who posted in this thread. I have been utterly confused by the "gun hole loop hole" expression and especially the huge poster on Landsdown Street / MA Pike.

Although I've never been to a "gun show", those that I know who have had had to present their licenses and get background checks, so I wondered what people were talking about. Now I know, more BS.

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

[Larry Legend]

Although I've never been to a "gun show", those that I know who have had had to present their licenses and get background checks, so I wondered what people were talking about. Now I know, more BS.

Thanks for clearing this up.

One thing to keep in mind when listening to "people" is to consider their background and the topic at hand.

If someone who has no background in firearms/firearm laws starts commenting about how "the gun show loophole needs to be closed", or how "felons should not be allowed to own guns", or that "no one needs to own a AR-15, you can't hunt with them", etc.

Ask yourself if they actually know what they are talking about, if they may have an underlying agenda, and if they are trying to influence you by expressing their viewpoints.

 

[WillyJP]

There is nothing nefarious you can perform with a firearm that wouldn't be illegal anyway. So the point of registration is control, register, and confiscate. This has been the motto of the modern liberal mind for at least 100 years.

Registration is the whole idea behind most if not all of gun control.

 

[jhrosier]

I've been wondering if gun show loophole and registration issues are two sides of the same coin....

There's no two sides to it. The whole issue is registration, gun control, and eventually confiscation.

In the free states, citizens can buy and sell guns freely among themselves without the permission of the government. I those places, the government can't confiscate the guns because they simply don't know who has them. Pretty good way to maintain the balance of power, eh?

If you have been in Massachusetts for most of your life, you have no way to understand how freedom works.

Jack

 

[scottb]

As a prelude to eliminating all sales of guns to "civilians", and that only as a prelude to eliminating all possession by "civilians".

Ken

++1 We have a winner!

 

[buketduder]

CT has that crap for Long Guns...Private sellers must do a background check at gun shows on long guns here but not anywhere else...

 

[Jose]

There's no two sides to it. The whole issue is registration, gun control, and eventually confiscation.

In the free states, citizens can buy and sell guns freely among themselves without the permission of the government. I those places, the government can't confiscate the guns because they simply don't know who has them. Pretty good way to maintain the balance of power, eh?

If you have been in Massachusetts for most of your life, you have no way to understand how freedom works.

Jack

Jack for the win.

 

[George D]

Its been covered here a lot, but its worth repeating to dispell the myth, there is no loophole in MA (where this billboard is placed).
The thing that pisses me off the most about that sign is that I start slowing down to check out the store and realize its fake. Access denied!

 

[jdubois]

Its been covered here a lot, but its worth repeating to dispell the myth, there is no loophole in MA (where this billboard is placed).

This is no gun show loophole in ANY STATE. What they're trying to stop has absolutely nothing to do with gun shows, at which the dealers still must perform a NICS check. When you say there's no loophole in MA, you feed into the idea that there somehow is a loophole in other states.

 

[cekim]

This is no gun show loophole in ANY STATE. What they're trying to stop has absolutely nothing to do with gun shows, at which the dealers still must perform a NICS check. When you say there's no loophole in MA, you feed into the idea that there somehow is a loophole in other states.

True and false IMO. Calling it a "loophole" is BS, but it is a highly liquid venue to purchase a firearm without going through a dealer and thus, in their minds "bypassing" the ATF check.

What they are pointing out is that there are private FTF's going on at gun shows. It is, however, nothing specific to gun shows - just a concentration (convenient location) to do lots of FTFs...

So, there is "sort-of" a loop-hole in that you have a comparatively plentiful supply of guns at a gun show through FTF (as well as demonstrably lax enforcement) that you would not have on any given day...

 

[Jose]

True and false IMO. Calling it a "loophole" is BS, but it is a highly liquid venue to purchase a firearm without going through a dealer and thus, in their minds "bypassing" the ATF check.

What they are pointing out is that there are private FTF's going on at gun shows. It is, however, nothing specific to gun shows - just a concentration (convenient location) to do lots of FTFs...

So, there is "sort-of" a loop-hole in that you have a comparatively plentiful supply of guns at a gun show through FTF (as well as demonstrably lax enforcement) that you would not have on any given day...

There is no "sort-of" loophole. At all.

 

[copterdoctor]

That sign belongs to John Rosenthal.....
http://www.alphecca.com/mt_alphecca_archives/002503.html

 

[Scrivener]

True and false IMO. Calling it a "loophole" is BS, but it is a highly liquid venue to purchase a firearm without going through a dealer and thus, in their minds "bypassing" the ATF check....

So, there is "sort-of" a loop-hole in that you have a comparatively plentiful supply of guns at a gun show through FTF (as well as demonstrably lax enforcement) that you would not have on any given day...

Wholly absent from your assertion of " 'by-passing' the ATF check" through " 'sort-of' a loophole" is this:

ANY personal transfer in MA requires both:

1. A duly licensed buyer; AND

2. A duly licensed seller.

Said transaction must then be registered with CHSB on an FA-10 executed by both parties.

Tell us again about this " 'sort-of' a loophole."

 

[Jose]

Wholly absent from your assertion of " 'by-passing' the ATF check" through " 'sort-of' a loophole" is this:

ANY personal transfer in MA requires both:

1. A duly licensed buyer; AND

2. A duly licensed seller.

Said transaction must then be registered with CHSB on an FA-10 executed by both parties.

Tell us again about this " 'sort-of' a loophole."

Not only that, in free states there can be no loophole when the behavior being called a "loophole" is intentionally legal.

The legislature in my state did not leave FTF sales void of NICS background checks by accident. Therefore, the fact that FTF sales need not be accompanied by a NICS check is by definition not a loophole.

 

[FalArAk]

I need to find a way to exploit this gun show loop hole,and profit from it.

 

[jdubois]

What they are pointing out is that there are private FTF's going on at gun shows. It is, however, nothing specific to gun shows - just a concentration (convenient location) to do lots of FTFs.

Uh huh. Then why aren't they trying to ban gun shows? Because they know the vast majority of FTF sales happen outside of gun shows, and that's what they're really interested in. But the evil gun show image is a much better 'scary, bad, gun people' scenario to use to try and pitch their slop.

 

[cekim]

Tell us again about this " 'sort-of' a loophole."

You have misinterpreted my posts.

I first said that there is no such "loophole" in MA - PERIOD - for the same reasons you posted.

I then said that while I do no describe what happens in other states as a "loophole" (rather I consider it perfectly lawful commerce), THEIR argument is not as ridiculous and blatantly incorrect as it is in MA. (though it is still specious)

They are correct that OUTSIDE OF MA, gun shows provide a highly liquid market in which there are both dealer transactions (which require ATF checks) as well as numerous FTF transactions (which do not require such a check).

So, nothing was "wholly absent" from my argument, it was just only present if you read both posts and kept one in the context of the next...

Next time, I will be sure to have a 1st year review and insert the required citations in related posts.

 

[Dench]

I need to find a way to exploit this gun show loop hole,and profit from it.

I hope people dont sell post ban high caps with these gun show loop holes. If so, im sure there are endless amounts of people who will come on NES to insinuate that other members here are felons.

I mean - hell, who needs to mind their own business when they can look like one smart dude online!?