Gun owners need basic medical training

[hurley431]

I'm still confused as to why CLS type aid and civilian basic first aid are so far apart? I was always trained to stop the bleeding before you do anything else, then worry about airway and breathing; I was studing for my EMT B and the obsession was on the airway before any bleeding.

Is it just the difference in the availibilty of blood and other IV fluids (like hex-tend(sp?)? Anybody know?

 

[Mass-diver]

I'm still confused as to why CLS type aid and civilian basic first aid are so far apart? I was always trained to stop the bleeding before you do anything else, then worry about airway and breathing; I was studing for my EMT B and the obsession was on the airway before any bleeding.

Is it just the difference in the availibilty of blood and other IV fluids (like hex-tend(sp?)? Anybody know?

If someone is not breathing, that's not a priority over bleeding?

Lots of times (with MVCs, etc) you are going to come across patients that are unresponsive and bleeding. If you don't the time to open the airway and instead are messing around treating wounds, starting lines etc, you are doing your patients a grave disservice IMHO.

 

[hurley431]

You don't start any IV's or anything; but, hemorage control is priority number one... since, if they lose blood we may not have any fluids to replace that loss... but I'm wondering if that is really why. I'm sure someone on this board will know for sure.

We're also taught that if they are not breathing, or are not attempting to breath they are already dead... I'm just wondering why. (If they are not responsive)

 

[vellnueve]

If someone is not breathing, that's not a priority over bleeding?

Lots of times (with MVCs, etc) you are going to come across patients that are unresponsive and bleeding. If you don't the time to open the airway and instead are messing around treating wounds, starting lines etc, you are doing your patients a grave disservice IMHO.

You don't start any IV's or anything; but, hemorage control is priority number one... since, if they lose blood we may not have any fluids to replace that loss... but I'm wondering if that is really why. I'm sure someone on this board will know for sure.

We're also taught that if they are not breathing, or are not attempting to breath they are already dead... I'm just wondering why. (If they are not responsive)

The combat situation is intrinsically different from the civilian situation.'

TC3 concepts are geared towards the battlefield combat situation where you're primarily worried about traumatic injuries from gunshots, explosions, and the like. In these situations, you're assuming that some form of help, whether a medic/corpsman or someone trained in CLS is nearby to quickly assess and get the patient into cover for further treatment if needed. If someone's leg gets blown off and they've got a femoral bleed, you have very little time to save the patient so you're throwing the tourniquet on quickly to staunch the exsanguination and then you're getting them into some form of cover to more adequately get hemostasis. Since the vital organs can survive several minutes of oxygen deprivation you then have that few minutes to worry about checking their airway/breathing/circulation to see whether you can take the time to further stabilize them. The reason they tell you not to bother if they're not breathing or trying to breathe is that CPR on unresponsive, non-breathing, non-circulating patients is extremely low in terms of success rates and it takes the lifesaver out of action for what is usually a futile attempt - in essence you should be trying to help injured people who have a realistic chance of life. Sure, if the scene is 100% secure and you have security all around and time, go ahead and try to resusitate them, but it's unlikely to succeed in that situation.

Civilian EMS rarely sees the kinds of traumatic injuries that IEDs and other explosives cause - gunshot wounds are unlikely to cause massive exsanguination unless they actually shredded a major vessel (and if that's the case the patient has probably bled out before the EMS arrives). MVAs do not normally cause amputation-type injuries either. Even if someone trained in BLS is standing there when it happens, I don't know of many BLS-certified people that go around carrying hemostatic devices and most people probably wouldn't use them properly anyways. Civilian EMS and BLS protocols are aimed more at cardiac arrest/v-fib/etc than massive traumatic injuries - again any massive exsanguination event means the patient is very possibly DOA before EMS gets there.

Different situations, different kinds of expected injuries/emergencies.

 

[hurley431]

thanks you for spelling it out for me; I figured it was something like that. It's a PITA now that I'm learning civilian first aid for my job. I have to brain dump my CLS training, and then once a month ignore the civilian CPR/AED/BLS stuff and remember the CLS again.

For the OP, I agree and still keep a CAT, SOF-T, Israeli wrap, and some combat gauze in my car just in case.

 

[vellnueve]

I have a CAT and an Israeli bandage and figure that should be enough for most things...

 

[snake eater 332]

Red Cross First Aid and CPR is great to know, but that's not what I'm referring to here. Also, I am in no way advocating that any government body mandate this for gun owners.

This is a GUN forum, right?!? We're all gun owners here, we keep one (or more) at home for HD and/or carry one for SD, right? Guns are designed to put holes in people.

With firearms present in the home, the chances that a family member, friend, or ourselves may be injured by a firearm accidentally discharged may be greater than our actually being involved in a self-defense shooting. Go ahead and stick your head in the sand....say "it will never happen to me." You can't rule it out unless you completely remove all firearms from your home. I'm not willing to do that and I bet you aren't either.

And even if we are involved in exchanging rounds with a BG, there's a chance that rounds (both our's and/or the BG's) may miss their intended target(s) and possibly strike bystanders, possibly someone we know and love.

I am only advocating a higher level of preparedness in this regard, above and beyond simple first aid and CPR.

Personally, I carry an ITS ETA Trauma Kit (MIL/LE) in my patrol car attached to my gear bag and an additional one on my chest rig, which is kept in the cargo area of my personal SUV.

http://www.itstactical.com/store/its-eta-trauma-kit/
http://www.itstactical.com/store/its-eta-trauma-kit-pouch-multicam/

This kit contains the following:
Z-Fold Combat Gauze (w/ X-Ray Detectable Strip – Green Package) (1)
HALO Chest Seal (2)
MojoDart Decompression Needle (1)
Naso Airway Adj. 28fr w/ Surgilube (1)
Israeli Bandage (1 – 4 inch)
Ace Bandage (1 – 4 inch)
Z-Pak Gauze (1)
Combat Casualty Card (1)
Nitrile Gloves (1 Pair)
Pencil (1)
Contents List w/ TCCC Care Under Fire Instructions (1)

I've also added to each kit:
SOF Tactical Tourniquet - Wide (1)
http://www.itstactical.com/store/sof-tactical-tourniquet-–-wide/
Mojo Medical Shears (1)
http://www.itstactical.com/store/mojo-medical-shears/

I continuously seek to improve my knowledge base and add skills to my 'toolbox'. Additional medical training is another 'tool' that makes me more rounded and valuable as a warrior.

 

[Ink]

I took Bill Lewitt's Trauma Management class at DRFT (hi) with Roman (sup!). It was a great class and was well worth spending the day! You really don't know what you don't know.

These are some pics of the first aid kit i carry (one in my backpack that goes almost everywhere with me, and a twin in my range bag).

I haven't bothered with pre-assembled kits because they have a bunch of useless stuff to make the kit look bigger or just some other stuff I will have no use for.
Everything I have in here is stuff that i have needed at one time or multiple times (except for the chest seals, tourniquet, celox thankfully!) I add things as I encounter different injuries.

 

[Lord0fWar]

So, hang out for a day in the ER of your local hospital and count the number of accidental firearm related injuries vs those caused by auto accidents, slips/falls, chainsaws, motorcycles and the like.

You will quickly find that responsible gun owners are very much under represented in your statistics.

You should find a cause that will actually make a difference...

I've actually decided I'm going to stop carrying my gun...because there is such a low percentage that I may NEED it...I might as well not have it

 

[gearjunky13]

I've actually decided I'm going to stop carrying my gun...because there is such a low percentage that I may NEED it...I might as well not have it

Your sarcasm hurts me

 

[cekim]

I've actually decided I'm going to stop carrying my gun...because there is such a low percentage that I may NEED it...I might as well not have it

I think the issue is the title of the thread I akin to saying "accountants need emergency medical training."

It implies that they are going to face an increased need for it beyond what we all face in every day life and I can tell you as a parent that EVERYONE faces sufficient statistical risk to warrant basic competency with first-aid and guns aren't the biggest threat by far.

So associating guns with this need smells like the usual liberal fear mongering to which we all bristle. Not much different than saying "people who play violent video games should learn impulse control and anger management."

Everyone should know these things...

 

[dlandry3453]

Can't recomend Kerry Davis enough. He's an instructor at SIG Academy and owner of Dark Angel Medical. I took his combat med course while he was teaching for MagPul. The training and teaching through his real life experiences is incredible. Also just a great guy. Check him out. Can't beat it. Having a blow out/gun shot/ifak kit with you isn't enough, gotta have the know how to use it.