Gun Dogs

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So I know I posted a little while ago about different gun dog breeds. I have not narrowed it down to labs and wire haired pointing griffons. Im more leaniong towards the griffs. Im looking for something that can do upland birds and waterfoul.

Im wondering which would be the best. To buy a puppy and bring it to training, or buy a started puppy?
Also if anyone knows of good breeders and trainers.
Thanks
 
Getting a started dog is nice. However, there is something very rewarding about training your own dog. The first dog you train may not be perfect but you'll understand where you went wrong and how to improve in the future.
 
I've owned labs, and now have a WPG. One major difference between them is that although every dog deserves to be thoroughly exercised each day, a WPG needs to. A LOT. This is a breed that should not be kept in an environment where it cannot run freely on a daily basis. They become very restless and destructive if not allowed hours of excercise daily. They're also not well suited to being kenneled. A lab makes for a better fit if you're in more of a (sub)urban area, as a lab is less needy. Either breed can withstand cold temps and take to water well. The WPG is a much more sensitive dog, and is quite smart. Thus, the WPG needs to be directed with the utmost care while handling/training.

As to pup vs. started, I'm a hunter but a pet owner first. And I'm also not one to go about training a dog for an NAVHDA test. I just like working with the dog so that an understanding is developed between us, and the dog wants to work for me. Any dog I've exposed to the field & birds has taken a natural interest in them. Working with them on a continual basis in the field always seems to bring out their natural instincts. Even little foo-foo lappy dogs, once exposed to the prey environment, can take on a whole other personality when they have their game face on. Getting the dog to recognize who's the leader, while they hone their hunting instincts, is what I really get a kick out of. They LOVE it!
 
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Pupchow, we are lloking to buy a farm on 5+ acres in the spring. Im not lloking to buy until then. I want to do as much research as I can before. I knew WPS's need a lot of exercise. Will they calm down with age like most "crazy" puppies do?
How would I go about training myself? Is there any good books or dvds out there?
 
I have a 3 year old GSP bitch. When the 'books' say they are high maintenance, they are not kidding. Great personality and a lot of fun but she definitely needs to get out and RUN. I put her on a shock collar both out in the yard on on conservation land walks. She can be gone in the blink of en eye.

We got her at 7 weeks which was great for my son. You can buy bird wings from Cabelas for training and I have done some of that and also had birds planted. She will find a bird, she almost can't not seek them out but I would think a 6 month old partially trained dog would be amazing.

I think 'the books' also say everyone screws up their first dog.

Bill
 
I've owned labs, and now have a WPG. One major difference between them is that although every dog deserves to be thoroughly exercised each day, a WPG needs to. A LOT. This is a breed that should not be kept in an environment where it cannot run freely on a daily basis. They become very restless and destructive if not allowed hours of excercise daily. They're also not well suited to being kenneled. A lab makes for a better fit if you're in more of a (sub)urban area, as a lab is less needy. Either breed can withstand cold temps and take to water well. The WPG is a much more sensitive dog, and is quite smart. Thus, the WPG needs to be directed with the utmost care while handling/training.

This is not necessarily true. A well bred field lab is the same way. They are born to work and need daily physical and mental stimulation or they will find "other" ways to use up some of that energy and boredom. They also NEED to be worked daily.

Now, having said that, the "show bred" labs are quite content to lay around on the couch all day, and they require much les axercise. The flip side of that is they are also much less driven than a field bred lab when hunting. They lose interest much more quickly when upland hunting and have less drive to make that looong swim to retrieve the cripple duck in cold water.
 
re: breed

What would be the difference between a "well bred" Lab or a "show bred" Lab, assuming conscientious breeders at work? Within one breed, I tend to believe a breed's general temperment is what makes it adaptable to various environments, judging from the hounds/labs/setters I'm familiar with.
 
Labs and goldens have developed into almost 2 different breeds. There are the "field" bred and the "show" bred. It is a long story and each side believes the other is wrong. However if you look at Show champions from 50 years ago, they look much like many of todays field labs. The show labs of today are nothing like what they were years ago. When I have more time, I can dig up some threads on other boards that I frequent that highlight the differences.

To me, the telling thing thing is there are no longer any "dual champions" whereby a dog can attain "Show champion" and "field champion" titles. Other breeds still have some, but not in labs or goldens. I fact, there are very few "Show champion" labs that can make it to Master Hunter level in the field.
 
Pupchow, we are lloking to buy a farm on 5+ acres in the spring. Im not lloking to buy until then. I want to do as much research as I can before. I knew WPS's need a lot of exercise. Will they calm down with age like most "crazy" puppies do?
How would I go about training myself? Is there any good books or dvds out there?

Our 3 y.o. may be the exception but she hasn't calmed down yet. This dog loves to run so much, you can tell she needs it. And she is on the large size, at close to 65 lb. My initial intention was to go with a breed that was bit more mellow than a GSP or Britanny Spaniel, to keep our smallish Cocker company. I'd wanted a dog that would not tend to range too far for a walking wingshooter, and one that would not hesitate to bust through tough brush. This WPG is that. Our WPG eagerly goes places that our Lab or Setter would often question/hesitate at, but she's very good at ensuring she's within range of her human. She is a cat chaser, but not viciously so (and nothing like the determination a hound has for its quarry). The Labs I've known get along much better with felines.

Having some property is nice, but be prepared to put on some miles. At minimum, we cover a couple of miles during a walk. While hunting, 6 or 7 miles is typical. This dog never seems to tire. You do need to watch the heat exposure though, as this breed's coat is not fit for hot temps. A distinct difference with the WPG is that she doesn't wander much, going only where there's a seeming purpose to her direction of travel.

Thing with training WPGs is, their intelligence causes them to grow bored very quickly. Training goes easily but they grow tired if subjected to the same tasks. A calm but assertive presence, combined with a mixed routine, is what's worked best. Repetition of a task is key, but over the span of days/weeks. You don't want to spend too much time on one task at a time. And if you find yourself becoming irritated or overly vocal, the WPG picks up on it instantly and ignores you. She enjoys pleasing her human, but on her terms. A Lab is much more eager to please. The WGP requires a more continual, subdued reminder that she's NOT the boss. Again, be prepared to put on some miles. This is not a dog that will take to staying in the yard playing catch & release with a Pheasant wing. Mixing training with a lot of free ranging exercise seems to work best as a reward for her efforts.

As for Griff vs. Lab, the WPG requires a much more attentive, deliberate demeanor. A Lab is more happy go-lucky. And a Lab is nowhere near the burr magnet that our WPG is. Our Griff is a lot to handle and a challenge at many times. It wasn't supposed to be this way, but she's a very strong dog. She's not a barker, but when she does it's because she interprets a threat. Very similar to a Lab in that way. She is a total compliment to our Cocker though, and they work very well as a team when pursuing birds. The Griff points, the Cocker dives in deep for the flush. The Cocker rules when it comes to finding downed birds though (we're working on that). I've never seen a dog work harder than that little lap dog.

For training references, I've referred to many online articles, magazines and various books, and used what fit my situtation. Search Amazon and you'll find an unending list of reference material available. I guess it depends on how far you want to take it, working companion or master of tests? There're also many trainers & clubs to chose from, if you're interested. I haven't participated in that aspect yet.
 
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To me, the telling thing thing is there are no longer any "dual champions" whereby a dog can attain "Show champion" and "field champion" titles. Other breeds still have some, but not in labs or goldens. I fact, there are very few "Show champion" labs that can make it to Master Hunter level in the field.

Gotcha. Yeah, that's not a good thing.
 
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