Gun Confusion Question

[Patriot]

I want to buy a Caspian Arms Receiver (frame), which has the serial number
on it, in order to build my own 1911. I was told by the gun shop that
has it for sale that the PRM does not recognize a frame with serial number as
the gun, but that it needs the additional components with it (slide,etc) and that
once I build it then the burden of registering it is on my ticket. I don't
think that this is the same for the Federalies, is it? Where or where can I
spend the last of my days trying to figure out this F****** State of Confusion?

I was under the impression that once you were in posession of the frame, you
essentially had the gun. Is guess this not so?

Thanks,

TBP

 

[Nickle]

TBP, as mentioned in my reply to your PM, as far as FEDERAL law goes, the Frame is the gun.

I mention this to let folks know you're aware of this part of it.

 

[C-pher]

No, not from what I understand in MA.

IT's not a gun in MA until it's all put together.

SO, while you have to fill out the federal forms and the NICS check when you pick up the frame. It's not a complete gun in MA until you have it all put together and working.

Then, from that point you have the 7 days to send in a FA-10. With the date that it was completed. Not when you got the frame.

If I'm mistaken, or missing something, Len or someone will set me straight.

 

[Cross-X]

C-pher, you are right on target.

 

[KMaurer]

Massachusetts law and Federal law define firearms based on totally independent criteria. Congratulations on finding a shop that knows the difference and will sell you the frame, and thanks for not identifying it publicly.

Ken

 

[Scrivener]

Just to add to the confusion, Mass. is one of very few (like, two) states that defines a "firearm" as a HANDGUN. Under most states' laws AND Federal law, the receiver is a firearm, whether it be complete or incomplete, rifle, shotgun or handgun.

Mass. law requires the capability to discharge the projectile in order to qualify as a gun.

The scary thing is, that last part actually makes sense!

 

[tele_mark]

<SNIP>

The scary thing is, that last part actually makes sense!

It's a TRAP!!!!!!!

 

[drgrant]

Just to add to the confusion, Mass. is one of very few (like, two) states that defines a "firearm" as a HANDGUN. Under most states' laws AND Federal law, the receiver is a firearm, whether it be complete or incomplete, rifle, shotgun or handgun.

Mass. law requires the capability to discharge the projectile in order to qualify as a gun.

The scary thing is, that last part actually makes sense!

Of course this begs the question.... I take it dissasembling a pistol, and making it incapable of firing a projectile, in this case, would mean
that while apart, that frame portion no longer constitutes a firearm, even
if its built up?

Of course my money is saying a court might still consider a frame a
firearm... even if it's statutorily not one. Or at a minimum, someone
still get nailed under the whole "suitable person" thing with their issuing
authority. (You fart within a 200 yd radius of the local police station
and your permit will get revoked, that seems to be the MA standard).

Example- Guy dissasembles handgun, leaves frame under seat in his
car.... frame gets stolen.... is the person in question NOT at fault for a
safe storage violation, because the object that was stolen did not constitute
a working firearm? Somehow I doubt doing this would work in the owners
favor.

Another example.... guy is caught with a "frame" inside a "school" but
not a working firearm.... will he still be charged under the "no carry in
schools" bit? (Provided he doesnt have the slide/ammo/magazine
on him).

Reason I pose this question is a lot of folks who are forced to leave a
gun in their vehicle for one reason or another often cite dissasembly
as a method to help mitigate risk....

(IMO, in MA the only safe thing, if that at all, is in the trunk or other
locked container bit... all the parts.. cause if your going into a
prohibited location, chances are even ancillary parts would be frowned
upon by the security there.... )

About the only bright spot is that maybe the IA would have mercy on
you because the only thing that was stolen was something which is inoperable
without a considerable investment on the part of the
criminal.... But even thats a stretch, probably, unless the IA has
a brain and says "Oh, well, this "frame" really isnt a threat to the community
because the thief would have to invest $$$ to make it a working gun
again".

-Mike

 

[Patriot]

No, not from what I understand in MA.

IT's not a gun in MA until it's all put together.

SO, while you have to fill out the federal forms and the NICS check when you pick up the frame. It's not a complete gun in MA until you have it all put together and working.

Then, from that point you have the 7 days to send in a FA-10. With the date that it was completed. Not when you got the frame.

If I'm mistaken, or missing something, Len or someone will set me straight.

Thanks to all. I assume that complete is when a bullet can actually be fired
from it. The last question I have is: Why can I buy a frame but cannot buy
a partially completed (slide + frame + some other goodies) from Caspian through
the gun shop? Is that because of the AG consumer crap?

Thanks,

TBP

edited for clarity..

 

[drgrant]

Thanks to all. I assume that complete is when a bullet can actually be fired
from it. The last question I have is: Why can I buy a frame but cannot buy
a partially completed (slide + frame + some other goodies) from Caspian and
neither can the gun shop? Is that because of the AG consumer crap?

Thanks,

TBP

The frame thing is obviously a shaky issue. And I don't think there are
a whole lot of FFLs that will even let you do it in this state... (and if you
know of any, don't post them on the board.... cause im sure the AG will
try something stupid).

If the frame thing was the only problem, then we could simply pay people
in other states to strip down frames of HKs and so on, transfer them, and
then reassemble them after the transfer, and then register them once
completed. (Overall, this would probably only add like $150 in cost
to the gun, and people would pay that... and I don't see that being
done... least not that I am aware of...) 3rd gen Glock frames would work
especially well for that sort of thing, since an awful lot of folks can tear one
of those down and build it up with minimal effort... (And even if you dont know
what your doing, there are plenty of glock armorer types around to get it
together for you... )

I have not yet found an FFL that will transfer a pistol frame
for me. The usual deal is around here you buy a used smith 1911 or an
auto ord 45 and then build off of that. (FWIW, I have a caspian slide
sitting on top of an auto ord frame on one of my guns!)

-Mike

 

[Patriot]

I have not yet found an FFL that will transfer a pistol frame
for me. The usual deal is around here you buy a used smith 1911 or an
auto ord 45 and then build off of that. (FWIW, I have a caspian slide
sitting on top of an auto ord frame on one of my guns!)

-Mike

Thanks Mike,

How did you obtain the caspian slide? Through an FFL?
Who did the fitting of the slide to the frame?

TBP

 

[drgrant]

Thanks Mike,

How did you obtain the caspian slide? Through an FFL?
Who did the fitting of the slide to the frame?

TBP

It was on the gun when I bought it. The previous owner had a
gunsmith I know do some work on it, although im not 100% sure if
he is the same fellow that fitted the slide. It's kind of a mutt
gun. It has a auto ord frame, caspian slide, STI fire control parts,
and a weld on magwell of unknown origin, and a scope mount that I
dont know where the heck that came from... (must be a cheap mount,
as the rail broke on the last third, but itll still hold a "one big clamp" style
reddot no problem... )


-Mike

 

[C-pher]

Thanks to all. I assume that complete is when a bullet can actually be fired
from it. The last question I have is: Why can I buy a frame but cannot buy
a partially completed (slide + frame + some other goodies) from Caspian through
the gun shop? Is that because of the AG consumer crap?

Thanks,

TBP

edited for clarity..

If I understand this correctly, yes. Many shops, as you know, won't ship to MA because they don't want to deal with the AGs pressure.

Again, if I'm mistaken, Darius, Len, Scriviner, or someone please let me know.

But to them, it's not worth it, so they don't ship parts here.

And, when they say frame, they pretty much mean just the frame. No screw bushings, nothing... So that's why I think that it matters.

 

[Scrivener]

It IS legal to ship a bare frame in; purchase does not even require an FA-10.

Finding an FFL with the requisite body parts and mental acuity to actually do it is, of course, another issue. I am aware of at least one such dealer (not to mention the one that advertises and sells whole guns not on the AFR), but I'm not going to subject that dealer to AG abuse and persecution by posting it on an open forum.

As far as dissassembling the gun, the ease with which the gun can be made functional is a MAJOR consideration in how the court would view an unlawful possession or negligent storage case.