Gun Clubs want lots of info.

[felonsforguncontrol]

Is it just me, or does it seem like gun clubs want lots of personal info? I can understand gun license number, emergency contact, and personal address. But date of birth? employer info? Are they running background checks on me? Isn't the fact that I have a MA LTC A/Large Cap enough to know I'm legal?

Am I missing something here? I'd like to join a few clubs, but all of them seem to want lots of personal info.

 

[MegaPlinker]

The only thing my club wants is my name and my $$$.

 

[felonsforguncontrol]

I'm thinking of MRA and Harvard. Both seem to want lots of personal info.

 

[BONZCNC]

I was looking today on-line at an application that was asking for a SS#. Are they insane?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Yes, most want that info. Age due to junior, regular, or senior member status.

Most (all good ones) gun clubs guard that data very carefully.

They reserve the right to do background checks. Some might and some might not.

Do you want to give the keys to your property to someone who will only tell you their name and hand you $100/year?

Clubs have a LOT to lose letting the wrong people join, as most clubs are "open access" to members. Some have put in cameras with video tape, etc. to catch folks that damage the property and throw them out and/or prosecute them.

I know of instances where members INTENTIONALLY shot side-ways across the shooting stations damaging all the separators, shot thru the doors, etc.

Having a LTC is NO GUARANTEE of responsibility (any more than having a DL guarantees responsible driving)!

 

[felonsforguncontrol]

I think anything more than is required to purchase a gun and/or ammo is ridiculous. Here's my LTC, anything more than that is none of your business. I'll even give them an emergency contact.

I've been unable to find any law or regulation requiring all this info. Perhaps my google-fu is weak. Or the state is great at hiding it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Most clubs will ask for SSN. I've politely refused each and every time and it's been a "non-issue".

 

[M1911]

At my club, we ask for name, address, license number, e-mail, and phone numbers. Some ask for a description of your car and tag number. That's so that if a member sees someone doing something wrong, but can't get the person's name, they might be able to track them down by vehicle.

We also ask for your line of work (but not your employer). We want to know if you are plumber, so that if we need to fix the bathroom we know who to call who'll give us a break on the cost.

We ask if you have ever been arrested. We did have someone try to join who had an FID, but was a federally prohibited person. As you might imagine, that was a rather uncomfortable interview when we turned him down, but we did not want to be involved in that, even tangentially.

We ask a few other questions about your interests. We're trying to get to know you quickly, so that we can vote on your membership.

As for SSN, no we don't ask for that I certainly wouldn't give it out. I suspect its still on there simply because someone thought it was a good idea way back when. Join the club, go to the club meetings, suggest to them that they should not be collecting SSN, and offer to draft up a revised application form without it.

In terms of who has access to the information, our board members get a paper copy of the mailing list, with names, addresses, and phone numbers. The files are kept in a locked office. The mailing list is kept in electronic format, but behind hardware and software firewalls on a machine that is not always on. We do not release our mailing list to anyone -- I suppose we would if someone came with a subpoena, but that's never happened.

 

[felonsforguncontrol]

Yes, most want that info. Age due to junior, regular, or senior member status.

Most (all good ones) gun clubs guard that data very carefully.

They reserve the right to do background checks. Some might and some might not.

Do you want to give the keys to your property to someone who will only tell you their name and hand you $100/year?

Clubs have a LOT to lose letting the wrong people join, as most clubs are "open access" to members. Some have put in cameras with video tape, etc. to catch folks that damage the property and throw them out and/or prosecute them.

I know of instances where members INTENTIONALLY shot side-ways across the shooting stations damaging all the separators, shot thru the doors, etc.

Having a LTC is NO GUARANTEE of responsibility (any more than having a DL guarantees responsible driving)!

Ok, so what are known good clubs that guard the data carefully? I've had my identity stolen out of freakin' FBI computers. Hopefully the gun clubs are better at data protection than the FBI. I can tell you first hand, it isn't very good.

I understand Harvard Gun Club's policy on requiring a sponsor. That's sane, so that if you sponsor little Jimmy the moody Goth and he shoots up your range, you know who not to trust anymore.

Also, I'm not looking to live there, just shoot a few guns.

I want a guarantee that if the data is stolen from the gun club, they will pay all my related legal fees to clean up the resulting mess.

I must be looking at the wrong clubs, since they want $250-350/yr. More if I don't want to do a work detail. I'd actually be willing to pay more per year to avoid giving them lots of info.

However, thanks for the confirmation that this amount of info is typical.

 

[M1911]

I want a guarantee that if the data is stolen from the gun club, they will pay all my related legal fees to clean up the resulting mess.

Not gonna happen. If you think gun clubs have enough money to do that, you don't understand the economics of a gun club. Many (most) are living hand-to-mouth.

I must be looking at the wrong clubs, since they want $250-350/yr.

I don't know a single club that is that expensive. Wayland Rod & Gun Club is $95. Harvard is $150. Riverside is $150. Woburn Sportman's is $125.

 

[rscalzo]

Major Waldron just raised their Individual Membership to $150.00 for a new member. We require all members to hold current membership in the NRA. Unlimited Outdoor Range use is another $30.00. Scarbourgh and a few others may be near to $250 for a new member, including the initiation fees.

We ask the normal name, address, date of birth, etc. but no SS number. We also request and NRA certifications the applicant holds. We do ask the type of business for the same reason stated. If we need work done, we will ask a member first if he is interested in the job. The date of birth is required as the club has various levels depending on age. And the usual have you ever been convicted of a crime that would deny firearm's ownership or use.

We have never had info misplaced as long as I've been a member.

 

[felonsforguncontrol]

Not gonna happen. If you think gun clubs have enough money to do that, you don't understand the economics of a gun club. Many (most) are living hand-to-mouth.
I don't know a single club that is that expensive. Wayland Rod & Gun Club is $95. Harvard is $150. Riverside is $150. Woburn Sportman's is $125.

Interesting. No, I don't understand the economics of gun clubs. I think I can reasonably estimate their model and expenses. Apparently, I'll just join one and take my chances. If they aren't good, I'll only have lost one a year and some fees.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I'm not at all convinced that any branch of gov't really gives a damn about a common citizen's personal info! My experiences lead me to this conclusion. [Want to be "real impressed" - NOT? Visit the RMV HQ and go to the Legal Dept. Listen as call-takers shout out names and SSNs across the room (~100')! It was surreal. Listen to any police scanner as at most incidents/traffic stops they broadcast (in the clear) names, DOB, addresses, SSNs. A virtual treasure trove for identity thieves.]

All four gun clubs that I have belonged to however seem to put a very high value on privacy of club members and their info. At BR&P I was the Legislative Chairman for a year and it was like pulling teeth just to get demographics (all I wanted was # members in each town, no names or other info). Only 2 or 3 officers have access to the club membership list at all and I don't think that computer is left on at any time that it's not being worked with by an officer.

At Sharon F&G the officers/BOD had access to the membership list if they asked the Secretary for it, but nobody else did. I don't know precise details at Mansfield F&G, but would suspect the same or more stringent security (no computers present there).

I'd say that the above is pretty typical of gun clubs.

 

[M1911]

felonsforguncontrol: TJX was recently hacked, resulting in credit card numbers being stolen. Although they are a multi-billion dollar company, they did not offer to pay for the legal fees of any customer who had their identity stolen.

If TJX can't afford to do that, why do you think a gun club with an income of $10,000 per year could afford to take on such a liability?

Gun clubs don't have your credit card numbers and their mailing lists are typically not online. So I don't think they are as big a target as most other places. I suspect that members are far more likely to be a victim of identity theft from someone stealing mail out of their street-side mailbox than through hacking into a gun club's computer.

 

[drgrant]

I don't see what the big deal is. Provide the info or move onto the
next club, or if you're that peeved about (whatever the request is) ask if
it's really necessary. I probably would not give my SSN, but if they've
seen (or are going to see) your LTC, I don't see what the big deal is about
giving any info that would already be on there. (such as DOB, address, etc.)

IMO one shouldnt get too bent out of shape- after all, you can find a lot about
someone with a credit card and an internet connection, and a name.

I don't think there is any law that stipulates that a gun club has to
ask for particular info- I think what you're seeing is a particular club's
requests, for various reasons. (some of which M1911's post covers. )


-Mike

 

[Chris]

Lets just say that Riverside (where I have been on the Board of Directors for six years) is so cautious about member privacy that not even I can get a printout of the members. The Database was specifically designed to not allow searches that would expose the entire list. The closest such a list comes is the creation of the labels for mailing newsletters. Even that is not complete as many members opt for reading it on-line.

Sure, if I wanted to hack the db (and I know the passwords to do it) I probably could. But the fact is that you'd have to be a database programmer AND have the encryption keys to get the data.

We specifically voted to NOT publish our newsletter in the GOAL "Outdoor Message" for the fact that it would require the creation of such a list for distribution outside the club. It didn't matter that the organization was trusted, it was simply the policy of the club to not create such a list.

The ONLY computer that maintains the list is locked in the club office protected by the deadbolts, an alarm system, passwords, and encryption. No network connection exists to this computer. In fact, when the keycard data is transferred to the machine that controls the outdoor ranges, it is carried by USB drive and only contains card numbers and their "security group".

Even when the board discusses members during recorded meetings, only the member's number is used in the discussion. Any mention of the member's name is taken to Executive Session and not recorded.

While I've never bothered to ask about all the inner workings at GOAL for their data security, I do know that their membership computer is also not networked and we also use Executive Session to protect the identity of any specific person under discussion when information is sensitive.

As for the club application, I find that ours is pretty straight forward:

Most of the data we ask for is more for a CYA purpose than that of being nosy. We ask for LTC/FID numbers because we are not going to activate a keycard for firearm ranges for people who can't shoot. We ask for DOB so that we have on file when people are eligible for Senior Life Memberships. We ask for employer info, nomination, and references so that if a question arises in the application process (every member must be voted into the club and any member can challenge an application) we have the means to get character references. Since we also handle a lot of Boy Scout and other youth events, we occasionally need to run a CORI check on members who volunteer to assist in these events. We ask for mailing and e-mail addresses so we can send newsletters and other correspondence. And thats it. We specifically do NOT ask for SSN. We have also declined to accept credit cards. We allowed a reputable company to install a small kiosk ATM for member use, but the liability for the data is on that company, not the club.

I'm sure that many clubs follow similar guidelines.

 

[felonsforguncontrol]

For the record, I'll join a gun club and see what happens. I intend to see if certain pieces of info can be removed from the application. Otherwise, I'll vote with my dollars for ones I like, year over year.

 

[rscalzo]

As an officer of Major Waldrons, we don't ask for, nor would we have a use for anyones Social. I wouldn't provide it myself. No club that I know of does a background check. They are cost prohibitive and limited in value unless an actual set of fingerprints are provided.

Private agencies providing this service charge much more than the membership fee would be for entry.

 

[M1911]

I intend to see if certain pieces of info can be removed from the application. Otherwise, I'll vote with my dollars for ones I like, year over year.

Fair enough. I think we all agree with you that SSN should not be collected by the club.

 

[dd]

Very interesting subject. My club requires two sponsors which is usually easy to get even if you do not know anyone. Dues are $125 plus a one-time initiation fee of $175. Since we are not limited to being a shooting club, we do not require that NRA or GOAL memberships be kept up, BUT, if you do not have these memberships, you get them as part of the initiation fee.

We require range officers to be present when ever a range is *open* which could merely be two members. However, access to buildings is solely for those who are volunteer ROs or Committee Officers etc., so indoor archery or pistol ranges are limited access. So, while you can access the property, you cannot shoot guns on the outdoor ranges except during specified hours per agreements with the town. We also do not allow ANY alcohol when ranges are open.

We do not have a history of ranges or equipment being shot up, either. So, while we are somewhat limited compared to some, we are much safer.

As for liability or club expenses, our annual budget runs around $250K per year, much of which is insurance, taxes, heat/electricity, plowing, etc. Our goal is to set membership fees and range expenses (birds, targets) just high enough to cover expenses. Our finances are reported upon monthly at the General Membership Meeting where any expense exceeding $1K, that was not previously budgeted for and voted approved by the membership, is voted on at that monthly meeting. Great visibility to interested club members, of which there may be 2400 or so.

The club computers reside in the homes of the Membership Chairman and of the Treasurer. No membership lists are EVER released. However, we will provide GOAL with demographics. If GOAL wants a mailing list we tell them how many fliers to send US and we mail them! There ARE ways to protect such data.

 

[Tater]

Is it just me, or does it seem like gun clubs want lots of personal info? I can understand gun license number, emergency contact, and personal address. But date of birth? employer info? Are they running background checks on me? Isn't the fact that I have a MA LTC A/Large Cap enough to know I'm legal?

Am I missing something here? I'd like to join a few clubs, but all of them seem to want lots of personal info.

I'm thinking of MRA and Harvard. Both seem to want lots of personal info.

I think anything more than is required to purchase a gun and/or ammo is ridiculous. Here's my LTC, anything more than that is none of your business. I'll even give them an emergency contact.

I've been unable to find any law or regulation requiring all this info. Perhaps my google-fu is weak. Or the state is great at hiding it.

It is the business owner's right to ask you for whatever they want for information. If you feel that it is too much info don't go there.

 

[KMaurer]

If GOAL wants a mailing list we tell them how many fliers to send US and we mail them! There ARE ways to protect such data.

GOAL never has and never will ask for mailing list to send flyers or anything else. The only time a club needs to provide GOAL with a list is if the club chooses to have their newletter published in The Message, in which case they sort of need to know where to send them. GOAL also never gives out their membership list to anybody for anything. If you want something sent to GOAL members, you supply them with your copy and for a fee, they'll include it with The Message if they consider it appropriate.

Ken

 

[rscalzo]

States have passed legislation banning any requirement for information in certain situations such as check cashing. The requirement to give DL info was dropped in NJ and merchants can no longer require it to be printed on checks used for purchases. Requirements to prints socials in many instances were also dropped. We could not demand it in our police reports unless it was for an arrest senario.

 

[Len-2A Training]

When I joined BR&P (1999) the form asked for SSN. I refused and asked "why". Net result was I think they removed the request for SSN from the application forms.

 

[Wildweasel]

So your choice is to Incorporate your own club or not join. They are PRIVATE clubs. they can require anything they want to and it is their right.

 

[BIG GUN]

Ok, so what are known good clubs that guard the data carefully? I've had my identity stolen out of freakin' FBI computers. Hopefully the gun clubs are better at data protection than the FBI. I can tell you first hand, it isn't very good.

I understand Harvard Gun Club's policy on requiring a sponsor. That's sane, so that if you sponsor little Jimmy the moody Goth and he shoots up your range, you know who not to trust anymore.

Also, I'm not looking to live there, just shoot a few guns.

I want a guarantee that if the data is stolen from the gun club, they will pay all my related legal fees to clean up the resulting mess.

I must be looking at the wrong clubs, since they want $250-350/yr. More if I don't want to do a work detail. I'd actually be willing to pay more per year to avoid giving them lots of info.

However, thanks for the confirmation that this amount of info is typical.

You will not find a better club than Harvard. We have to charge $150 per year because even with 800+ members, getting a work party together is like hens teeth, so we have to hire contrators for a lot of projects.
How many local clubs offer 7,25,50,75,100,200,300 yd. ranges, plus 1/2 dozen IPSC ranges, SASS & even class3 ranges, along with casual trap, and an indoor 50' ranges, all without requiring a range officer being present while you shoot. A formal trap & 3D archery range is in the schedule for this year.
Your stage name is enough to concern me!

 

[felonsforguncontrol]

You will not find a better club than Harvard. We have to charge $150 per year because even with 800+ members, getting a work party together is like hens teeth, so we have to hire contrators for a lot of projects.

Your stage name is enough to concern me!

I agree. Harvard sounds like a fine club and I'd love to join it. It appears I'd need a sponsor to do so. I have no problem paying for a work detail versus actually doing the work.

My stage name is literally from the old bumper stickers I saw as a kid which were yellow with black letters stating "Felons for gun control!". I never understood the meaning until 2006; although, it's not like I thought about it daily either.

 

[felonsforguncontrol]

In order to sum this up and kill the thread, my initial reaction to reading around 10 gun club membership forms was "jeez, they want a lot of info." It turns out, it should be "Ok, they want a lot of info, which one gets it?" I'm new to the world of gun clubs. Chalk this up to a learning experience. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[M1911]

It appears I'd need a sponsor to do so. I have no problem paying for a work detail versus actually doing the work.

At most clubs that require a sponsor, get to the meeting early, find one of the officers, tell them you want to join the club but don't have a sponsor. They'll set you up.

As for the paying versus doing, while clubs certainly need money, we need your work a lot more than we need your money. Come to the club and help out, even if it is only for an hour here and there. You'll be helping the club, meeting new friends, and maybe getting a bit of exercise raking leaves and the like.

 

[BIG GUN]

I agree. Harvard sounds like a fine club and I'd love to join it. It appears I'd need a sponsor to do so. I have no problem paying for a work detail versus actually doing the work.

My stage name is literally from the old bumper stickers I saw as a kid which were yellow with black letters stating "Felons for gun control!". I never understood the meaning until 2006; although, it's not like I thought about it daily either.

Our next club meeting is this Thurs. Be there between 6:30 & 7. You can talk to anyone & I am sure you will find a sponser. Fill out the form & you will be voted in that night.
Cost will be $150 + $150 initiation, And if your not a current member of the NRA, you will be required to join.