glove box question

[Maj. Boom Boom]

OK i was at a hunters ed class and there was a cop there addressing the students, he stated it was legal to have a firearm in the glove box. Myself and one other person said we heard it wasn't. he asked where we heard this and i told him online. he would like me to bring a copy of the law to him and of course now i can't find it. i did a search but so far have had no luck.

so can anyone point me in the right direction or law? i would like to show it to him to shut him up. this cop also stated "i haven't carried since i retired" then a little later he stated "the 38 i carry" (notice carry - not carried) and at one point, while he was talking about carrying, he put his hand on the spot where he normally carries. WTF does he or doesn't he carry?

thanks for the help!

 

[Len-2A Training]

Have him give Chief Ron Glidden a call at Lee PD.

 

[zeppelinfromled]

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131c.htm

If the weapon isn't under your direct control, it must be "unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container."

So it seems to depend if the glove box is considered a "locked case or other secure container."

I know that FOPA specifically says that you can't carry it in the glove box though.

 

[KMaurer]

You won't find any law specifically dealing with the glove box, so forget about that approach. There are two questions that would bear on the issue. First, if you're in the car is the gun under your direct control? I'd argue that it is if you're in the front passenger seat or if that seat is empty and you're in the driver's seat. Compare it to having a gun in your desk drawer while your sitting behind the desk. If you're not in the car, are in the back seat, then the question becomes whether the gun in the glove box meets the requirements for storage or (if the car's moving) transportation. It would be rather difficult to convince most people that the glove box in most cars would constitutes a secure container by itself.

Ken

 

[pdm]

Is there case law on what constitutes a secure container?

 

[Tim94gt]

IANAL, but I was under the impression if the glove box has a lock on it, and you are the one with the key that would be "secured"

 

[KMaurer]

There one or two decisions that are totally off point dealing with home storage under unusual circumstances. No guidance on this question. I'd note though that the typical glove box is no more difficult to open than the cloth gun rag with a luggage padlock that most now agree does not meet the standard.

Ken

 

[Maj. Boom Boom]

thanks guys, looks like i will be having humble pie for dinner tomorrow night [sad2]

 

[ASHDUMP]

thanks guys, looks like i will be having humble pie for dinner tomorrow night [sad2]

mmmm. humble pie.

 

[JonJ]

There one or two decisions that are totally off point dealing with home storage under unusual circumstances. No guidance on this question. I'd note though that the typical glove box is no more difficult to open than the cloth gun rag with a luggage padlock that most now agree does not meet the standard.

Ken

And no worse than the wood cabinet with a locked glass door

 

[kevin9]

Have him give Chief Ron Glidden a call at Lee PD.

thanks guys, looks like i will be having humble pie for dinner tomorrow night [sad2]

Just to clarify Chief Glidden is the head of the state Gun Control Advisory Board and apparently the primary author of much of their guidance. It's my understanding that it is their guidance that indicates that a unlockable glove compartment or console does not constitute "secure storage" IAW MGL S140 C131c. The officer in question should be able to get copies of their guidance documents

Note the GCAB guidance does not constitute law or regulation, but IMNSHO as a matter of practice one should seriously consider it.

 

[chris_1001]

These laws are really not all that clear. You'd think that there could be a simple answer to such a simple question.

i.e. Lockable glove box = OK, meets the law...
Unlock-able glove box = Does NOT meet the law...

Mine locks, and the key for it is separate from the ignition (key-less ignition) so it can be in my pocket at all times...

If I have a soft case with a cheap luggage lock in the trunk that is way less secure...

My understanding is that the original no go on the glove box was to prevent criminals from getting a gun if they stole your car. I don't think that a gun rug/case in the trunk helps anymore to prevent that.

Let's face it, keeping a loaded full size pistol in the glove compartment (locking) is a really handy option...

Granted in this economy that care break ins are more common... So it's not a 24/7 option. But it should be for most of us under the right circumstances...

my .02

 

[Maj. Boom Boom]

what i don't get is how they can enforce this stuff when the law is so unclear. also the fact that a soft bag with a lock is OK but the glove box isn't. to me, it is easier for a crook to smash a window and carry off the locked bag than it is for them to break into the car then the glove box.

 

[Maj. Boom Boom]

OK so a locked glove box is alright and its the unlock-able ones that are the problem. that's where i went wrong.

thanks for the help.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ron Glidden, in the past, has told (and instructed other LEOs) that ANY storage in a glove box or console was illegal!

I don't know if that has changed, thus my strong suggestion that he call Ron and get the "current reading" as stuff like this is subject to change with each new Secretary of Public Safety & his/her legal staff "re-interpreting" the law/regs.

 

[Maj. Boom Boom]

ok will do lens, thanks

 

[Maj. Boom Boom]

well i took my friend to the class tonight. this cop asked me if i had the law, i told him no, gave him copies of the state laws and gave a copy of this thread. then the class started.

i watched him reading this thread and watched him talking and laughing with another man whom has only been sitting there so far for the 2 classes, i assume he is another cop. at the break the cop comes over to me and says "we know him he's a rebel rouser" and he wrote down the name of Angie from GOAL along with her phone number and told me to have him call her. then the class resumed.

we ended up having a second break tonight. at that break i asked the cop who he meant was the rebel rouser. i asked him this because we were talking about chief Ron Glidden and i had pointed to LenS post telling me to have him call the chief. he said LenS was the rebel rouser.

at the end of the night i asked this cop "whats your name again" as i forgot it from the first night, I wanted to be able to post it here and see if LenS knows him, he told me Joe Frazier and laughed! so that destroyed any credibility this guy had in my eyes.

instead of acknowledging that this chief may have more control over a wider range of leos, he just said that every chief can set it any way they want in regards to the glove box. when i told him that it just makes it confusing for the average joe, he agreed. i told him my point was that i was not going to take the chance of running into one of these cops, who thought it was illegal, and have to fight my way through court over it. i would rather not have my gun in the glove box period.

there you have it. LenS if i can manage to somehow get his name, maybe by asking one of the other guys doing the class, i will post it. i didn't mean it to turn the way it did and i want to be able to identify this guy to you.

 

[terraformer]

he just said that every chief can set it any way they want in regards to the [law]

That pretty much sums up MA law enforcement...

 

[Len-2A Training]

Was it a Brockton cop? Most that I knew are now retired. One of their Police Commissioners is a good friend of mine. Only Brockton cop (retired) that I could think of that is a firearms instructor could be Tom Downey (owner of Fairground Traders) and then it would probably be with a chuckle (Tom's a real good guy).

A lot of LEOs have seen things I've written on various forums over the years. Sounds like this guy might be on MassCops.

 

[Half Cocked]

My personal opinion on the matter is that a locked glove box is fine.

 

[Half Cocked]

Just to clarify Chief Glidden is the head of the state Gun Control Advisory Board and apparently the primary author of much of their guidance. It's my understanding that it is their guidance that indicates that a unlockable glove compartment or console does not constitute "secure storage" IAW MGL S140 C131c. The officer in question should be able to get copies of their guidance documents

Emphasis added

 

[terraformer]

My personal opinion on the matter is that a locked glove box is fine.

But is it really smart to put a handgun in a glove box? You get pulled over and have to get your registration out and the cop is facing a motorist reaching for a gun.

 

[Half Cocked]

But is it really smart to put a handgun in a glove box? You get pulled over and have to get your registration out and the cop is facing a motorist reaching for a gun.

No it is not smart....but it is legal. Two different things. Open carry is legal but I don't think it is smart.

I would suggest carrying the registration over the visor instead of the glovebox if that is the case.

 

[securityboy]

Just to clarify Chief Glidden is the head of the state Gun Control Advisory Board and apparently the primary author of much of their guidance. It's my understanding that it is their guidance that indicates that a unlockable glove compartment or console does not constitute "secure storage" IAW MGL S140 C131c. The officer in question should be able to get copies of their guidance documents

Note the GCAB guidance does not constitute law or regulation, but IMNSHO as a matter of practice one should seriously consider it.

While I mean no disrespect to Chief Glidden, but unless you are unlucky enough to be stopped in Lee by the chief of police, what Chief Glidden thinks (despite him being the head of the GCAB) doesn't mean shit. What matters is what the officer who stopped you thinks (and then possibley what the courts think). Unless you are being an A-hole, if you are properly licensed I doubt most officers are going have a problem with your gun being locked up in the glove box (as stated by half cocked don't keep your reg in there). To be 100% honest unless they are (or once were) the licensing officer for that town, the officer stopping you probably has never heard of Ron Glidden.

 

[terraformer]

No it is not smart....but it is legal. Two different things. Open carry is legal but I don't think it is smart.

I would suggest carrying the registration over the visor instead of the glovebox if that is the case.

And this is the real retort to that cop. He should never have been telling people to put a gun in a glove box. He was frankly being stupid.

If he is running a hunters safety course or an FID/LTC safety course, he should have defaulted to the most conservative, safest advise to the various scenarios. Can you imagine some noob who heard a mountain of info during this course only gets half of it. He then goes and drops his new glock in his glove box and gets pulled over. Why would any cop who supposedly is so experienced in LE tell someone this is OK without throwing up some major red flags? Nothing in the OP suggested this guy said it was not advisable but legal under x/y/z circumstances. On the contrary, everything hobbit has said suggests this guy relished in being right about the law more than giving good advice.

 

[Mike-Mike]

this conversion keeps bouncing between "storage" and "transportation" they are very different in law.

 

[Maj. Boom Boom]

Was it a Brockton cop? Most that I knew are now retired. One of their Police Commissioners is a good friend of mine. Only Brockton cop (retired) that I could think of that is a firearms instructor could be Tom Downey (owner of Fairground Traders) and then it would probably be with a chuckle (Tom's a real good guy).

A lot of LEOs have seen things I've written on various forums over the years. Sounds like this guy might be on MassCops.

i don't know where he was a cop but he is retired. he is not tom, i have shopped in the fairground trader, so i know its not him. this cop looks young enough to still be on the force. i will try to find out more on Friday but i think he knows i want to find out who he is after the name he gave me. this guy comes off as a real harda**.

you know how heavy drinkers get sort of a red face to them after years of drinking well this guy has a bit of that look to him. i am not saying hes a drinker, just that he has a bit of that look to him as a description.

 

[Maj. Boom Boom]

No it is not smart....but it is legal. Two different things. Open carry is legal but I don't think it is smart.

I would suggest carrying the registration over the visor instead of the glovebox if that is the case.

my whole thing with this cop started out about it being legal but most of it had more to do with different cops thinking legal/illegal and not knowing which you would run into. is it worth going through all kinds of hassle with courts, lawyers and money just to have it in the glove box my response was no and that is what i wanted the class to know.

 

[jenlynn724]

I was told NO. Glove boxes are not necessarily secure. Mine for instance can be locked, and unlocked with a key......or a butterknife, or a paperclip, or a nail file, etc...

 

[Mike-Mike]

I was told NO. Glove boxes are not necessarily secure. Mine for instance can be locked, and unlocked with a key......or a butterknife, or a paperclip, or a nail file, etc...

Where you told NO for transportation or for storage?