G19: This pistol could be the Army's next handgun

[Picton]

But when it gets down to just you and your survival do you want a handgun?

You're talking past him, like you have been for days now. He's trying to tell you that soldiers DON'T think in terms of "just you and your survival."

 

[just jim]

I'll try one more time, then. Civilians, once they hear I'm a veteran, always ask me if I've got any "cool Army stories."

I was in for 7 years, spanning two different components and a combat deployment (rare during the 90s). As a result, I've got a lot of Army stories. Like, A LOT of Army stories. But I've learned not to tell them to civilians.

My best story involves a stray dog, some concertina wire, an OGA guy, three gunshots, and a battalion PA with a syringe. It's a fantastic story, and I tell it well. But every time I tell it to civilians, they react with horror and shock. When I tell it to fellow veterans, they're literally rolling on the floor, crying with laughter. Same story, told the same way, with two diametrically opposed reactions. Why?

Context.

See, the story's funny for reasons that are automatically and instinctively understood by vets. Those reasons involve regulations, basic combat loads, the frought relations between the Army and OGA, the Airborne mindset, and the crushing boredom that can only be understood if you've had to guard a motor pool at 0200. If you don't get that stuff, the story's not easy to understand; if you've lived it, it doesn't need to be explained and the story can be enjoyed for what it is. Because, see, you already understand the story's context.

I guess I could make a civilian understand and appreciate my story, but I'd have to spend so much time explaining all that context that it wouldn't be worth the effort. Because, see, the civilian still wouldn't understand the story as well as the vets will.

In the many, many pages of this thread, justjim, I've noticed that you and a few other posters don't understand the context under which infantrymen make their decisions about what they carry, which in turn reflects what they value (in this case, a pistol vs more rifle ammo).

We've tried to explain it, but you don't seem interested in learning; instead, you seem interested in being "right." Notwithstanding your utter lack of qualifications to do so, you've assumed you know better than those who've experienced what, for you, is a largely theoretical exercise. So don't be surprised when we tend to respond to you with condescension and disdain.

Your opinions, like all opinions, are fine. But they're also uninformed, and they're uninformed in a thread full of guys who are informed. Please accept that your knowledge of an infantryman's context is less than mine. That's not a slam, a flame, or any other kind of insult: it's just a fact. Because I was an infantryman and you weren't. If you don't want to try to understand our context, then we'll just keep talking past each other.

That might float your boat, but I've got better things to do on a gorgeous Saturday.

You have lived your life with your decisions and it's all good. When you put your life in the hands of others to make your decisions you came out alive with lots of stories, congratulations. Some dont win the lottery...


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

 

[whacko]

Survival, why do folkes take that Chemo when they know it probably won't work? It's the thinking on survival, if you have a choice to carry a handgun would you is what a person would ask themselves. You are told it's better you take more ammo for your rifle so you do as you are told. On your own in a comming fight would you leave your handgun at home?

For christs sake.....given im humping 60 pounds.....and fighting in a squad of a dozen or more trained infantrymen yes. Put on the gear....walk the walk.....and then get back to us.

 

[just jim]

Do I have a rifle also?

That should be up to you...

- - - Updated - - -

For christs sake.....given im humping 60 pounds.....and fighting in a squad of a dozen or more trained infantrymen yes. Put on the gear....walk the walk.....and then get back to us.

Fall in line jim,....

 

[whacko]

A person with training and experience in maneuver warfare would ask themselves if they have a better chance of keeping the UNIT alive if they carry a pistol and pistol ammo for themselves or hump extra ammo for the crew serve.

****ing this^. A million times over.

 

[Picton]

You have lived your life with your decisions and it's all good. When you put your life in the hands of others to make your decisions you came out alive with lots of stories, congratulations. Some dont win the lottery...


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

ooooookay. Glad we had this talk.

 

[ochmude]

That should be up to you...

Then yes, I have a rifle, no pistol, and more rifle ammo.

 

[whacko]

But when it gets down to just you and your survival do you want a handgun?

We dont think that way.......sometimes riflemen hump projos for the morter platoon adding even more weight! Those projos will keep the UNIT alive. Our gear is packed to keep everyone alive not just me myself and I.

 

[crazymjb]

Still rather have 2 more mags for my M4 than a ****ing M9. This whole thing is ridiculous. You can think whatever you want Jim, but you are downright wrong. I'm sure you're a good dude, but you don't know what you are talking about and wont' listen to those who do. Your views on how the military should work are invalid and don't matter, not to mention lack any support apart from your incorrect baseless theories based on third hand anecdotes that aren't representative of the majority anyway.

Mike

 

[ochmude]

We dont think that way.......

All I can figure is a situation like what Mike Durant faced after Shughart and Gordon were killed. Even then, I'm guessing he probably wished he had more rifle ammo, maybe something belt fed, or possibly an M1 Abrams, but probably not a pistol. However, what he probably really wished for was for Shughart and Gordon to have survived, because you're right, we don't think that way. From personal experience, survivor's guilt is a bitch, and it's never about your own survival. I think I might be done with this thread for now.

 

[whacko]

All I can figure is a situation like what Mike Durant faced after Shughart and Gordon were killed. Even then, I'm guessing he probably wished he had more rifle ammo, maybe something belt fed, or possibly an M1 Abrams, but probably not a pistol. However, what he probably really wished for was for Shughart and Gordon to have survived, because you're right, we don't think that way. From personal experience, survivor's guilt is a bitch, and it's never about your own survival. I think I might be done with this thread for now.

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ochmude again.

 

[just jim]

Still rather have 2 more mags for my M4 than a ****ing M9. This whole thing is ridiculous. You can think whatever you want Jim, but you are downright wrong. I'm sure you're a good dude, but you don't know what you are talking about and wont' listen to those who do. Your views on how the military should work are invalid and don't matter, not to mention lack any support apart from your incorrect baseless theories based on third hand anecdotes that aren't representative of the majority anyway.

Mike

Of course I am wrong Mike and I need to fall in line with today's thinking but before I go I will give you what my brother told me about his winning the bronze star and the purple heart.

Thinking of the day was issue the M79 grenade launcher and a 45acp pistol to one man in the squad and my Sargent brother was that man. The Marines had to wear vest and hump heavy loads through the jungle, hot and humid and they had to fight the jungle to get where they were going. The trails were booby trapped or they were set up for ambush so it's through the jungle they went.

Came across a hooch and saw armed VC going into it so the squad deployed to take the hooch. Once in position they opened fire but my brothers 79 was in effective because the jungle was so thick. So him and two others went to flank the hooch and either kill them inside or flush them out to be killed. Brother pitched in a grenade and an enemy grenade came out at the same time...and right behind it the enemy. Brother defended himself with his 45 useing all five rounds that were in it. Err five you say? Yep just 5 because even though they would hold eight the thinking was the gun wouldn't run with a full mag.

Brother went on to win the bronze star for pulling one of his men to safety under heavy fire and he won the purple heart when his own artillery killed everyone in the squad except him and one other man. Seems somebody in the artillery crew wasn't thinking and didn't correct the gun after a heavy rain that caused the wheels to sink.

Nephew won no medals while in Somalia when he was in the Marines, thinking of the time was don't even give the Marines ammo on guard duty...

 

[whacko]

Of course I am wrong Mike and I need to fall in line with today's thinking but before I go I will give you what my brother told me about his winning the bronze star and the purple heart.

Thinking of the day was issue the M79 grenade launcher and a 45acp pistol to one man in the squad and my Sargent brother was that man. The Marines had to wear vest and hump heavy loads through the jungle, hot and humid and they had to fight the jungle to get where they were going. The trails were booby trapped or they were set up for ambush so it's through the jungle they went.

Came across a hooch and saw armed VC going into it so the squad deployed to take the hooch. Once in position they opened fire but my brothers 79 was in effective because the jungle was so thick. So him and two others went to flank the hooch and either kill them inside or flush them out to be killed. Brother pitched in a grenade and an enemy grenade came out at the same time...and right behind it the enemy. Brother defended himself with his 45 useing all five rounds that were in it. Err five you say? Yep just 5 because even though they would hold eight the thinking was the gun wouldn't run with a full mag.

Brother went on to win the bronze star for pulling one of his men to safety under heavy fire and he won the purple heart when his own artillery killed everyone in the squad except him and one other man. Seems somebody in the artillery crew wasn't thinking and didn't correct the gun after a heavy rain that caused the wheels to sink.

Nephew won no medals while in Somalia when he was in the Marines, thinking of the time was don't even give the Marines ammo on guard duty...

We already discussed the m79 thing. Today your brother would have an m203....and would not have had to draw a less effective side arm....he would have been better armed with the m4/203 combimation. Kudos however to him for using what he had at the time to close with and kill the enemy and save so many lives. Seriously.....hats off.

i wonder which kitnhe would prefer if he were Soldiering today....m79 /1911 or a 203/m4?

 

[M60]

Of course I am wrong Mike and I need to fall in line with today's thinking but before I go I will give you what my brother told me about his winning the bronze star and the purple heart.

Thinking of the day was issue the M79 grenade launcher and a 45acp pistol to one man in the squad and my Sargent brother was that man. The Marines had to wear vest and hump heavy loads through the jungle, hot and humid and they had to fight the jungle to get where they were going. The trails were booby trapped or they were set up for ambush so it's through the jungle they went.

Came across a hooch and saw armed VC going into it so the squad deployed to take the hooch. Once in position they opened fire but my brothers 79 was in effective because the jungle was so thick. So him and two others went to flank the hooch and either kill them inside or flush them out to be killed. Brother pitched in a grenade and an enemy grenade came out at the same time...and right behind it the enemy. Brother defended himself with his 45 useing all five rounds that were in it. Err five you say? Yep just 5 because even though they would hold eight the thinking was the gun wouldn't run with a full mag.

Brother went on to win the bronze star for pulling one of his men to safety under heavy fire and he won the purple heart when his own artillery killed everyone in the squad except him and one other man. Seems somebody in the artillery crew wasn't thinking and didn't correct the gun after a heavy rain that caused the wheels to sink.

Nephew won no medals while in Somalia when he was in the Marines, thinking of the time was don't even give the Marines ammo on guard duty...

The newer vets are trying to tell you that Nam was a different place and time. Back then, the guy on the M79, or the M60 was a lot more on his own as far as ammo, specific to the weapon went. A side arm was essential to safety. From what I have been able to gather, Nam was routinely more up close and personal because of the jungle cover. More reason for the side arm. Some times, you were in each others faces before either of you knew it. Not so much of that in todays situations. Longer distance seems to be the norm and as a result the higher capacity, longer distance effective firepower of the M4 is the more correct duty weapon.

 

[hurley431]

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[Andy in NH]

I just want to know if I should use Weaver with an M9 or ISO with a G19? Is Weaver the best stance when shooting from a moving vehicle once my 240 dries up?

Weaver with an auto pistol of any type is a no-no.

Don't forget that Jack Weaver developed his stance using a revolver.

[/sarcasm]

Survival, why do folkes take that Chemo when they know it probably won't work? It's the thinking on survival, if you have a choice to carry a handgun would you is what a person would ask themselves. You are told it's better you take more ammo for your rifle so you do as you are told. On your own in a comming fight would you leave your handgun at home?

John Plaster, a veteran of MACV SOG chose on his own to leave his Browning High Power behind in favor of more rifle magazines for his CAR-15.

 

[frenchman]

This problem is as old as it gets. In the early-mid eighties, we had free choice of secondary and the option of a tertiary weapon on what we frenchies call "isolated shooter mission", the primary always being either the FRF2 or a scoped version of the MAS 49/56. I do not recall ever opting to take a handgun, like, ever. FAMAS in the ruck if shooter, FAMAS carried as spotter. Wouldn't cross my mind to bother shlepping a 9 mil through the landscape.