First reloads.. worked but...

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Lugnut

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Well I made 10 9mm rounds, 124 gr bullets and used 3.8grains Winchester 231. My first bullets ever built. The good thing is they worked however they were very light loads... sounded and felt very light. Cases weren't ejected and one empty case caused a jam. Slide didn't lock back. So I know I need more powder this time. The range for these bullets is 3.8 to 4.5.

Any idea how much to move up to next? Somewhere in the middle? I was surprised how light of a charge it was and I know the scale was calibrated.
 
first off are they lead or jacketed and how far did the slide move?
I would go to 4.0 gr 231 all my manuals say 4.5 gr is max. If using lead alide should eject case but not with a graet deal of force. also which pistol are you using.
 
highlander said:
first off are they lead or jacketed and how far did the slide move?
I would go to 4.0 gr 231 all my manuals say 4.5 gr is max. If using lead alide should eject case but not with a graet deal of force. also which pistol are you using.
Click to expand...


I realize there are lots a variables-

FMJ Winchester 124 Grain bullet
Sig 228
I have no idea how far the slide moved but from experience with other commercial rounds (CCI, Winchester,etc) it's never not locked back on last round and the cases jump out much further. I could see the cases that ejected- they barely popped out!
 
mag springs might be a bit weak if slide is not locking back on last round.
Take them apart give quik cleaning. from your discription I think 4.0 gr 231 might do the trick.go to www.wolffsprings.com and look into replacement springs if cleaning doesn't solve the slide not locking back
 
http://www.wwpowder.com/data/handgun/9mmlug.php

Most likely you are not cycling the slide fully against the spring. I think you will also find 231 a little bit dirty for 9MM loads.

Above is the latest data from Hogdon who is now the distributor for Winchester Powders.

ALSO: A chronograph is a must have for load development. You can go by the charts to a certain point, but need the chrono to see what the load does in your gun.

Regards,
 
Last edited:
For many years I have used 6.0 grains of Unique pushing 115 grain. Win. FMJs (CCI #500 and mixed cases) and found it a reliable and accurate load in a range of 9mm pistols.
 
well, I'm far from an expert, but...

When I made up my first set of loads I made a range starting at the lightest recommended and went up in 0.2gn increments to the max load. When I went to the range I started at the lowest load and worked my way up.

I just made 10 rounds of each to try them out. Didn't take too long.
 
OK- so I reloaded 10 more rounds with the same bullet but with 4.2gr. Slide locks fine when emty now and case eject fine. However it still feels soft compared to even my WWB 9mm rounds. The reloading manuals recommend no more than 4.4 or 4.5 gr of 231 depending on which one I use (Speer and Lyman). Is it "normal" that the MAX load would be comparable to commercial loads? I thought the max load would be real hot but I can't see how at this point! I'd honestly be surprised if 4.4 or 4.5 gr matches power of the WWB stuff.
 
Round Gun Shooter said:
http://www.wwpowder.com/data/handgun/9mmlug.php

Most likely you are not cycling the slide fully against the spring. I think you will also find 231 a little bit dirty for 9MM loads.

Above is the latest data from Hogdon who is now the distributor for Winchester Powders.

ALSO: A chronograph is a must have for load development. You can go by the charts to a certain point, but need the chrono to see what the load does in your gun.

Regards,
Click to expand...

Very interesting RGS! This data suggests a STARTING charge of 4.4gr to a max of 4.8 with 231 and a 125gn FMJ bullet (with 1.090" COL)- this is way off from the manuals I have!! Could the feel of a weak load be cause I'm keeping the COL close to max too?
 
Let see if I can explain the "max preasure" thing.
To understand this Lyman's latest manual in front of you would help. Max preasure does not always mean that. Case in point,the 9 mm SAAMI max is 35,000 psi now my Lyman manual loads are an AVERAGE 3,000 psi less then SAAMI with a particular powder. Loading manuals tend to stay on the conservative side on preasure there are going to be variations in this mix different pistol,barrel dimensions,case brands etc I hope you see where I'm going here "max" is not always "max". If the cases are being ejected smartly and the slide is locking back and gruop size is ok looks like you found the "right" load for your pistol. I hope that I've exlained little cunumdrum correectly as I am no Scrivener in my language skills.
BTW I stick to reloading manuals and tend to avoid the website loading info as the info on what the cartridge was fired from ie preasure barrel or actual pistol.
 
recoil is a combination of variables that include powder charge and bullet weight. most target loads use a light charge of "fast" burning powder with a ligher bullet recoil would be less. Slower burning powders such as WW 296 or H110 will give more recoil prmarily because the powder charge are large and bullet weight tends to be much greater.
The weight of the firearm come into play as well lighter pistol will recoil more than heavier.
Case in point I have2 357 mag revolvers both Rugers 1 is a Redhawk 7 1/2 inch barrel the other is a GP 100 4' barrel.
The Redhawk weighs 58-60 oz and is a pussycat to fire even with very heay loads. GP100 is half the weight of the Redhawk but its not as comfortable to shoot the same heavy loads
 
The other thing that nobody has seemed to discuss so far is the choice of 231 to build a 9mm load. The Speer manual (I'm using No. 12) shows 231 as the "worst" of the 16 different powders listed - I'm defining "worst" here in the sense that the maximum load (in terms of velocity) it allows you to develop is far below what can be achieved with that cartridge and that bullet weight.

Here's what's going on: all cartridges have a maximum allowable working pressure established by SAAMI - for the 9mm Luger that happens to be 35,000 psi. When the Speer folks tested 231 with that bullet in their pressure gun they reached the max pressure of 35,000 psi with 4.5 gr, so that's what they list as max, even though it results in a rather anemic 998 fps of velocity. The problem is that 231 is too fast burning to be efficient in the 9mm - it reaches max pressure too quickly, before it can really accelerate the bullet. (Doesn't mean it's not a great powder for other applications, by the way - my Walther GSP .32 S&W absolutely loves 1.8 gr of 231 under a 98 gr wadcutter.) It's the velocity of the bullet (all things being equal) that determines recoil - not the pressure, so that's why you've experienced cycling problems and low felt recoil.

The solution? Switch to a better powder for that cartridge/bullet combination. The starting loads for (for example) the slower-burning HS-7 and Blue Dot both achieve muzzle velocities in excess of 1100 fps - about 10% more than the maximum load of 231. And since the formula for free recoil is non-linear, the incremental effect on cycling and felt recoil will be greater than that. Note that you may or may not get the same velocities in your gun, but the relative differences should be similar.

Whenever I'm working up a new load I always try to start with the powder that will give me the maximum performance - if I can get to the max listed load safely (usually the case) and with the accuracy I'm expecting then fine, if not I work down to the next powder on the list. I don't think I've ever bothered with a powder that wasn't among the top 3 or 4 listed for a particular cartridge/bullet combination.
 
While I was typing that last post highlander made a very good point - free recoil is not simply a function of the bullet velocity, but rather of the velocity of the "ejecta," which includes the gasses generated by the burned powder. Those weigh approximately the same as the powder did, so can be worked into the recoil calculation easily.

As a practical matter, for most pistol cartridges the extra mass leaving the barrel can be ignored because it's very small compared to the mass of the bullet. That's not the case with rifle cartridges, where the weight of the powder charge can equal or even exceed the weight of the bullet, and any calculations that don't take it into account will be far off.
 
Dick said:
...The solution? Switch to a better powder for that cartridge/bullet combination...
...I don't think I've ever bothered with a powder that wasn't among the top 3 or 4 listed for a particular cartridge/bullet combination.
Click to expand...

This is good advice. For handgun loads, you can find 3 or 4 powders that will work well, and cover virtually all caliber/bullet combos.

I like 231 for .45 ACP (5.5 grains behind a 230gr jacketed bullet pretty closely duplicates the old military load).

For 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm, and others I like Power Pistol or Blue Dot.

I use Bullseye for .38. My favorite powder overall is Titegroup. Like the can says, "A little goes a long way." I use it for .32 ACP and S&W .500 Magnum (and a few calibers in between).

H110 is a great magnum pistol powder for heavy loads.
 
Well... I guess I'll be using the 231 for lots of .45s. Unfortunately I bought a couple pounds of 231 and a pound of Bullseye. I'm sure I can use 231 for all my rounds (9mm, .40 and .45) although it won't be optimal... oh well live and learn. I was "told" that 231 is a good powder for what I'm reloading.

FWIW I think I'm going to go up to 4.6gr on my 125gr FMJ 9mm bullets and leave it at that. Winchesters web site says I can go to 4.8gr with a Siera 125gr FMJ so I should be ok.
 
Thanks for all the knowledge too guys, I appreciate it. I hope Winchester Primers are good... I bought a couple boxes of them since no one had CCI. They do seem soft... don't ask how I know!
 
I use 231 primarily for cost a pound goes a looong way.
I shoot for fun and don't consider my self a "good" shot by any sense of the word. And no I don't shoot competition I've got a big enough inferiority complex as it is
 
In terms of high versatility and low cost, Red Dot is VERY hard to beat. I've used it for everything from .25 ACP to .45 ACP.

You might also check out Clays or WST.
 
Thanks again everyone. I just reloaded 50 rounds with 4.7gr of 231 for the 124gr FMJ 9mm. Once I get this recipe finalized I'll try .45ACP and .40 S&W.

I have a bunch of SPEER bullets for all calibers so I have some time to play. [smile]
 

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