firefighter friendly ammo storage?

OK so I need to buy ammo cans and get the ammo out of the safe

So I have an off topic question

Fridges.... I hear R-22 is not fire friendly... how do you handle them during a working fire?
 
You're standing outside your burning house at 3 a.m. in your slippers.

Fire department pulls up.

Do you honestly think that if you tell them "It's OK, all 10,000 rounds of ammunition that I own are safely stored in GI ammo cans!" that they're going to treat the situation any differently than if you were to tell them "I have 10,000 rounds of ammo stored in a safe where they're more likely to explode." ?

If I were a firefighter I'd keep a s'mores kit with my turnout gear to kill time in that exact situation. [rofl]
 
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bambame2 said:
A small amount of ammo isn't that bad. A large amount well it will make me want to leave in a hurry. One of those mettle truck boxes will container it I'm sure but your best bet is to keep it in the basement in some sort of heavy duty container. A couple rds is scary but man hair spray bottles are loud and can goods boom and those small camp stove LP bottles make you think your going to piss your pants. Its all good for laughs over beers later.
Click to expand...

I think the key point about ammo storage is DO NOT MAKE A BOMB. If you put it in a sealed, metal container, you have made a bomb. I wouldn't store it in one of those waterproof fire safes. Best to just store it in ammo cans or some steel locker or set it on cinder blocks.
 
GSG said:
You're standing outside your burning house at 3 a.m. in your slippers.

Fire department pulls up.

Do you honestly think that if you tell them "It's OK, all 10,000 rounds of ammunition that I own are safely stored in GI ammo cans!" that they're going to treat the situation any differently than if you were to tell them "I have 10,000 rounds of ammo stored in a safe where they're more likely to explode." ?

If I were a firefighter I'd keep a s'mores kit with my turnout gear to kill time in that exact situation. [rofl]
Click to expand...

To answer as you have written the question, YES they most certainly would treat the situation differently.
If there was a higher likelyhood of what would normally be a deflagration turning into a detonation because of containment, you can bet your bottom dollar it will get a different response.
 
Knowing what Finalygotabeltfed does for a living I would listen to his opinon.
 
there are new NES'r that might have been 16 years old three years ago. Now is old enough to prchase firearms and ammo. Did a a search and came up with this thread.........Hmmm does NES need a sticky page for all the stickies ? maybe threads should be deleated after 2 years of inactivity ?
 
First hand experience from Nov 3rd 1987 my house had a 3 alarm blaze, over 1000 rounds of .308 plus, .44 plus 9mm plus .22 I think you get the idea, anyway the fire department heard numerous "pops" which was the Ammo going off no big deal, it was when the collection of decorator Avon bottles started to explode that they backed up, the can of FFF black powder never went off and I used it the following years black powder season. the ammo was stored in a duffel bag.
 
Finalygotabeltfed said:
Ammo in a safe is a potential bomb. Nowhere in the NFPA does it specify or recommend a safe for storing ammo.

... snip ...
Ammo should be stored in GI ammo cans or in a loosely nailed wooden boxes or in plain old cardboard if not long term storage.
Thats how its routinely shipped, stored in warehouses, factories and bunkers.
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Ok, so how is an ammo can (which is air tight) better than a safe (which typically isn't)?

I don't really understand how if an air tight steel ammo can is good, a non air-tight safe isn't.

Wouldn't a completely filled ammo can (how else would you pack them?) build up pressure faster than a safe which has air leaks and has lots and lots of air space ('cuz it's also got guns in there, right?)

Are ammo cans designed to fail predictably?
 
milktree - it all has to do with how much pressure the container can stand.

the ammo can isn't particularly strong, at least the link of wire holding the lid on isn't. It lets go at lets say 5 psi.

The safe is stronger. It will allow the pressure to build up to a higher level then explode all at once.

Also, the safe encourages you to store it all in one place where it may go off all at once.

If you haven't done it, pull the bullet from a round of ammo. set the powder on a piece of metal or something that won't be harmed, then light it on fire. You will be very surprised at how slowly it burns. Without pressure gunpowder burns slowly and predictably. Without the round being inside the chamber of a gun, necessary pressure for a good explosion doesn't exist. If you allow that "pop" caused by the burning of the powder to vent, it will remain pretty benign. If you contain it, you end up with an explosion.

Don
 
namedpipes said:
It just stands to reason that something that is designed to explode can be dangerous. . . .
Click to expand...

While the quoted statement is a truism, it is out of place here since cartridges loaded with smokeless powder are not "deisgned to explode."

A cook off of an unconfined smokeless cartridge will send a couple of pieces of the brass case a foot or two. There are experiments showing that these will often (but not always) be contained by the cardboard container in which they were sold; the problem with those experiments, however, is that at a temperature sufficient to cook off the rounds in a real world environment, the cardboard would have long combusted into ash.

If the issue is genuinely of concern, store your ammo in cardboard boxes inside of a wood chest with a couple of 2" holes drilled around the periphery.
 
RKG said:
While the quoted statement is a truism, it is out of place here since cartridges loaded with smokeless powder are not "designed to explode."
...
If the issue is genuinely of concern, store your ammo in cardboard boxes inside of a wood chest with a couple of 2" holes drilled around the periphery.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to conduct the experiment of filling a safe with ammo and heating it. Safes are too expensive and I don't really care about the answer that much!

I store ammo, powder (black and smokeless) and components in a heavy duty plastic "job box" with padlocks. It meets or exceeds any MA law/regulations, keeps the stuff together and more or less organized and isn't strong enough to create the containment that could make any of that a real problem. (whether or not that is a real concern)

A wooden bin/chest or even a $10 filing cabinet would work just as well, too.

I think everyone (including myself) is overthinking this...
 
milktree said:
Ok, so how is an ammo can (which is air tight) better than a safe (which typically isn't)?

I don't really understand how if an air tight steel ammo can is good, a non air-tight safe isn't.

Wouldn't a completely filled ammo can (how else would you pack them?) build up pressure faster than a safe which has air leaks and has lots and lots of air space ('cuz it's also got guns in there, right?)

Are ammo cans designed to fail predictably?
Click to expand...

Yes they are.

Do you think the military would buy and use them by the millions if they weren't proven? The design hasn't changed in almost 80 years, thats how reliable and safe they are.

Ammo cans are limited in their content capacity, have marginal hinge integrity with regard to overpressure and have a gasket that will fail in a fire leaving a gap around the lid to vent the expanding gases as ammo cooks off preventing a faster detonation
 
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Yeh... You must not have been in the same military i was in heh heh..... 5 tons and dueces with split ring rims.... I had a tire go down on me on 95 in a 5 ton going through CT and almost killed some guy and his family who were about to pass me.... Ring shot out, crossed the highway, bounced off the jersey barrier, crossed back across the lanes of traffic and nearly.embedded itself in a tree....

Safety might be in the top 5 of design concerns... But only accidentally.....

From my Rooted HTC EVO via Tapatalk
 
This thread is focused on safety of FD personnel, which of course is a primary concern. But the other primary concern is safety for others in the home, particularly if you have kids. So what is a parent to do? Safes and job boxes are bad for FD but are best for keeping kids out. I recently bought a tall office cabinet with an electronic lock and store ammo in the military surplus cans. I am hoping this is a good compromise but if it doesn't feel secure enough to me, I gotta consider a job box or safe. I just haven't seen any other secure options discussed b/c everyone is focused on compression and not security. Some flimsy container with a crappy lock to comply with MA storage laws won't cut it for child safety, at least in my home. And the DIY green ammo can lock set-up is not a kid-safe option IMO. Suggestions always appreciated but I am hopeful I have a decent solution.
 
Why is it not kid safe? If you have kids running around in your house playing with locked ammo cans (kids that are strong/smart enough to defeat modest security measures) then I'm not sure anything will help you- you have bigger problems than ammunition storage.

I know some folks that when they upgrade their safe they take all their ammo, put shelves in an old gun cabinet and store their ammo in there.

I store a lot of my ammo in a huge rolling plastic toolchest I got for $60 at Home Despot. It has lock points for padlocks, and nobody is getting into it without a sawzall or a lot of effort. If your kids can use a sawzall don't bother locking the ammo up. [laugh]

-Mike
 
I have a no longer used upright freezer that will be used for powder & ammo storage.
It has heavy duty wire shelves that should serve well for ammo weights.
According to conversations that I have had with firefighters, fridges and freezers frequently survive house fires with the contents intact.

Jack
 
In the bigger picture of a fire, a few rounds going of will not likely get noticed as the internal environment of a fire building is not very quiet. Working inside you often can't hear crap. A vented cabinet/ container/ ammo box in most cases will provide containment and prevent pressure build up. Especially if the ammo is in the main body of fire, the rounds will go quick. I've been to plenty of buildings where doing overhaul we find guns, expended rounds and never knew they were there or heard them go off.

Honestly for me personally I am more worried about entering shed and garage buildings for explosive concerns with contents stored. Hell people but 5 gallon gas cans and propane tanks next to each other all the time in the sheds/garages.

Bulk quantities of black powder may be more concerning. Quantity, mixture and containment equals concern. I won't get into mandated quantity reporting etc. There is a whole list of codes and regs on that. If you are home when the fire occurrs, let them know you have ammo and where it is in the house, how it is contained and quantity.

Be sure to seperate anything flammable/potentialy explosive from anything else that can start a chain reaction, including ammo and powder. If you can mark the cabinet with a placard, that would be cool and if possible store it low by the floor where it will take longer to build heat.

So why mark or tell the FD about where it is in the case of a fire?? a few examples...1) our safety 2) if the area is not directly involved in the fire load, your stuff can be protected and some firearm friendly guys will get your stuff out before it is damaged. We do this all the time with peoples possessions. 3) that area of the building will be protected from the beginning. Prevents a problem and saves your stuff. 4) basements are a real concerning place to fight a fire. Limited access, egress, large amount of content, the mechanicals and fuel supplies. Things going bang or really even pop down there more concerning than in upper floors.

Second the decision to stay in a building or exit and drown the building from the outside, is highly subjective. If the IC knows there is a light load of ammo in the building and hears a some go off, probably no big deal. If they don't know how much or what is in the building and things start going bang, they will definately err on the side of safety and pull the guys out, then do some surgical large stream work :) Suck to pull the guys out and loose the whole building and everything in it over some undisclosed ammo. Worse yet, to loose some guys over undisclosed large quantities of ammo or black powder.

Why loose your home over a few rounds and a misunderstanding. Just like everything common sense.

Thanks to the OP for his concerns!!!!!
 
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inerlogic said:
Yeh... You must not have been in the same military i was in heh heh..... 5 tons and dueces with split ring rims.... I had a tire go down on me on 95 in a 5 ton going through CT and almost killed some guy and his family who were about to pass me.... Ring shot out, crossed the highway, bounced off the jersey barrier, crossed back across the lanes of traffic and nearly.embedded itself in a tree....

Safety might be in the top 5 of design concerns... But only accidentally.....

From my Rooted HTC EVO via Tapatalk
Click to expand...

What does a split rim wheel failure have to do with ammo storage or cans?

When it comes to military munitions and their accessories, they are about the safest thing you could possibly handle.

I highly doubt that safety is an accidental concern with anything designed for or used by the military. A product would have a real uphill battle getting accepted if its injuring it's users constantly. As with anything, accidents do happen. Accidents with munitions are a particulalrly bad thing and they know it, and they design, plan and act accordingly.
 
Littlecalm - The only real risks presented to kids by ammunition is a choking hazard. If your kid is over two, then you are beyond that phase.
As the father of a 2 and a 4 year old, I just got through with choke-proofing my home.

The worst time is between 1 and 2 years of age. At that point the child is mobile and has a tendency to put EVERYTHING in her mouth.
If I shot some large rifle calibers, even that age wouldn't be a problem. But I'm primarily a handgun shooter and 9mm is just the right size to fit in a little one's mouth.

Remember that ammunition is essentially inert unless its in a gun.

I'm a big fan of something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Plano-1612-Water-Resistant-Field/dp/B000P3WS02/ref=pd_sim_sg_7

I've got several, organized by color. A tie wrap through the latch of the calibers I don't use often keeps the kiddies out.

Don
 
OP, from a firefighter, THANK YOU for even being concerned enough to think about it and ask advice!! Ammo honestly isnt the worst thing, unless its chambered in the barrel. Keep the hairsprays, paint cans, anything ALREADY under pressure out of the basement and I personally would be thrilled. Gasoline too.. Paint thinners... All of that stuff that is in big cans, when it heats, and blows flaming liquids. That will scare me way more than the pop of a round, even a 308. Mostly because its in the basement, where its one way in and one way out easily, usually full of crap that burns, you get the point. Again, I thank you for being concerned enough about the responders to think of it!!!
 

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