Fire Twice -vs- Empty the Magazine?

[vellnueve]

Unforetunately there are those who actually think the way sleepytime was joking

 

[boomerang]

[humor]

If the guy you shoot has:

1. A beard
2. Scummy high top sneakers
3. Pants too loose
4. Wife beater or no shirt at all
5. Any kind of drugs in his pocket

It doesn't matter how many shots you shoot because you will be found innocent by the jury.

If the guy you shoot has:

1. A wife and kid
2. A tie on
3. Glasses on
4. A sad disease
5. Bare feet

It doesn't matter how many shots you shoot because you will be found guilty by the jury.

[/humor]

 

[Sleepytime]

I was joking...

Also, I've seen CSI and I know that all crimes can be solved in the span of an hour. Hopefully it would be the blond that interegates me. I wouldn't be able to stop laughing if it was the guy with the porn-stash trying to get me to confess.

I say, shoot until the threat has been ceased. Excessive force would be pissing on him afterwards.

 

[BOBKATT]

I was joking...

Also, I've seen CSI and I know that all crimes can be solved in the span of an hour. Hopefully it would be the blond that interegates me. I wouldn't be able to stop laughing if it was the guy with the porn-stash trying to get me to confess.

I say, shoot until the threat has been ceased. Excessive force would be pissing on him afterwards.

Shoot until he is no longer attacking you and make sure that your semen doesn't get on him.

 

[Sleepytime]

those damned black lights pick up everything! Blood spatter, semen, seamen, sand people, jawas, Klingons, Borgs, Ophra, Rozanne... noone is safe!

 

[tuna]

Don't forget to empty your bladder and or bowels to REALLY show that you were scared ...... uh - silly?

 

[drumenigma]

Don't forget to empty your bladder and or bowels to REALLY show that you were scared ...... uh - silly?

"Officer, I was so scared out of my mind when he came at me that I shit my pants!"

 

[Jaxon]

Keep in mind, you are legally responsible for every shot you fire.

I recommend shooting until you have stopped the lethal threat, and no more shooting after that, unless the lethal threat reoccurs.

When the cops come, make sure you drop your gun. Don't want to look like a threat to them.

+1. But can I just lay the gun down on the ground?

 

[seanc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross-X
Keep in mind, you are legally responsible for every shot you fire.

I recommend shooting until you have stopped the lethal threat, and no more shooting after that, unless the lethal threat reoccurs.

When the cops come, make sure you drop your gun. Don't want to look like a threat to them.

As JonJ stated...no need to read any further than this.


Well, yes there is.. When the cops come to arrest you, rather than splilling your guts telling them everything that has just happened in your now severely brain addled state..

Just SHUT UP and tell the police ONLY, "I NEED A LAWYER." And say nothing else.

 

[45collector]

Don't forget to empty your bladder and or bowels to REALLY show that you were scared ...... uh - silly?

That's actually not a bad idea!! I know I usually have to piss if I'm woken up in the middle of the night.

Living in a state like MA, I'd try to make sure I was backed into a corner, with no escape whatsoever, and be absolutely sure the assailant had some type of weapon. In this state you are obliged to attempt escape if encountered with a threat. Most folks believe that if you're in your home, that obligation dissappears. Still, I would do my best to avoid shooting unless I was positive they were trying to kill/harm me.
Think about this: What if the intruder had you cornered in a room, and was advancing toward you yelling loudly "I only want money, I don't want to hurt you!!" and they had no weapon? Would you fire? Your neighbors might hear their statement and testify in court as to his apparent motives. You could be charged with excessive force if you shot them. In other states in our country you could fire away at an intruder in your home and not have to worry about legal consequences. We don't have that luxury in MA.

 

[Fsorrent]

those damned black lights pick up everything! Blood spatter, semen, seamen, sand people, jawas, Klingons, Borgs, Ophra, Rozanne... noone is safe!

No No No, Rosanne uses her echo location voice to divert the UV rays, creating a light-flux and rendering her invisible.

 

[Fsorrent]

That's actually not a bad idea!! I know I usually have to piss if I'm woken up in the middle of the night.

Living in a state like MA, I'd try to make sure I was backed into a corner, with no escape whatsoever, and be absolutely sure the assailant had some type of weapon. In this state you are obliged to attempt escape if encountered with a threat. Most folks believe that if you're in your home, that obligation dissappears. Still, I would do my best to avoid shooting unless I was positive they were trying to kill/harm me.
Think about this: What if the intruder had you cornered in a room, and was advancing toward you yelling loudly "I only want money, I don't want to hurt you!!" and they had no weapon? Would you fire? Your neighbors might hear their statement and testify in court as to his apparent motives. You could be charged with excessive force if you shot them. In other states in our country you could fire away at an intruder in your home and not have to worry about legal consequences. We don't have that luxury in MA.

If someone has broken into your home with you in it, you can only assume they were there to cause you unavoidable harm...Just cause he tells you that, doesn't mean he's telling the truth. Although, criminals do have a good reputation for telling the truth.

 

[FunYun]

Use of force beyond simply stopping the attack is not self-defense.

If you just blatantly empty the mag, it shows you were not thinking clearly or had other motives.

Everything you do during a SD situation will be picked apart. The less stupid shit you do, the less they have to hang you with.

I wouldn't completely clam up to the cops, though I would be extremely careful or vague about everything I say. Basically acknowledge you were attacked, had a fear of death, and no other recourse. You will not get a free pass on the day of the shooting, so don't expect it. Do remember you will also be a target for the family of the attacker.

 

[Negotiator]

+1 on "stop when there ceases to be a threat."

Wasn't there a situation where a cop constantly drilled mozambiques and reholstered? IIRC, he fired 2 chest, 1 head, but didn't drop the suspect, and by the time he realized this when he noticed that he had reholstered, just like he did every time he was on the range.

Well, you fight like you train. If he was used to reholstering after a 2+1, likely he do that under stress when most cognition has gone to mush...

 

[45collector]

If someone has broken into your home with you in it, you can only assume they were there to cause you unavoidable harm...Just cause he tells you that, doesn't mean he's telling the truth. Although, criminals do have a good reputation for telling the truth.

Understood. I was giving an example of how screwed up the laws in this state are. It's not too far fetched that you might go to jail for shooting an unarmed intruder in your home.

 

[Fsorrent]

Understood. I was giving an example of how screwed up the laws in this state are. It's not too far fetched that you might go to jail for shooting an unarmed intruder in your home.

An unarmed intruder can easily become armed once inside your home, there are plenty of sharp and flammable objects lying around... It's better to assume that he is armed period.

 

[M1911]

Understood. I was giving an example of how screwed up the laws in this state are. It's not too far fetched that you might go to jail for shooting an unarmed intruder in your home.

IANAL. It is my understanding that in MA you must believe you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury to be justified in using deadly force. The mere fact that an intruder is in your home is not, in and of itself, justification for using deadly force in MA. So yes, you could go to jail in MA for shooting an intruder in your home.

 

[Negotiator]

Interesting thread but in reality, unless you are a highly trained member of the military special forces, when faced with an imminent lethal threat, your reactions will not be anything like you think they may be in the real situation. You will experience a whole series of psychological and physical issues, such as cognitive narrowing - i.e. you may not remember hearing the shots, or what you were thinking ( likely as not you'll not be thinking, just reacting) as your body is flooded with adrenaline and tries to cope. The best you can hope for is that your panic and fight -flight reaction does not render you incapable of action. Sure, we use Mozambique in IDPA and many can get off three accurate down zero shots in quick time. We can practice in the dojo and in competition fighting, but faced with the real thing, you may not react as you expect The adrenaline is from the competition, not a life threatening situation which makes it totally different.

We do really odd things under stress - things we would never imagine while sitting in the comfort of our favorite chair contemplating our actions in the face of a deadly situation.

CrossX is right on the money. Shoot till the threat is neutralised, then no more.

 

[clinotus]

If that's your plan going into it, I hope you get a nice bunk mate at MCI. All the prosecutor has to do is enter the training syllabus from any well-known school showing that that's not the way they train. It's always fire to stop the attack. If you've had to fire a second shot to the center of mass, and that still hasn't managed to stop the attack, then shift aim to the head. An automatic 2+1 is almost per se excessive force. Just as you own each shot fired, you have to assess whether additional rounds are needed before every shot, not after every group or 2 or 3 or after each magazine.

Ken

I cannot agree with this, I certainly understand that in the eyes of a non-shooter a perfectly executed 2+1 drill will seem like excessive force...the fact remains it is a deadly force situation. Not partial, not moderated, not exploratory, but deadly force. If your shots happen to line up perfectly and he drops on the spot its game, set, and match. If your shots dont and he still drops on the spot with severe wounds, again its game, set, and match. No matter how the situation plays out you have employed deadly force towards someone in situation where it was legally allowed.

Living in a state like MA, I'd try to make sure I was backed into a corner, with no escape whatsoever, and be absolutely sure the assailant had some type of weapon. In this state you are obliged to attempt escape if encountered with a threat. Most folks believe that if you're in your home, that obligation dissappears. Still, I would do my best to avoid shooting unless I was positive they were trying to kill/harm me.
Think about this: What if the intruder had you cornered in a room, and was advancing toward you yelling loudly "I only want money, I don't want to hurt you!!" and they had no weapon? Would you fire? Your neighbors might hear their statement and testify in court as to his apparent motives. You could be charged with excessive force if you shot them. In other states in our country you could fire away at an intruder in your home and not have to worry about legal consequences. We don't have that luxury in MA.

We have castle doctrine in MA. If someone is advancing on you in your home I think the stakes are escalated. Of course this doesn't allow you to light someone up for crossing your threshold, but you don't have to exactly have the person chase you all around the house until you have the perfect scenario in order to engage with your weapon. There is a lot to read between the lines though, so your advice is still spot on....yet...

I cant say that in my own home with females present that someone who broke in with force or with ill intent is likely to have a great day. I'm not going to preach on some exterminate all targets theme, or press forward with extreme vigilance, nor am I going to break out the shoe polish to paint under my eyes; however I am fully aware that if I am rendered disabled there is a significant chance of the situation becoming a repeat of that horror story that occurred in CT. I cannot take that chance.

Use of force beyond simply stopping the attack is not self-defense.

If you just blatantly empty the mag, it shows you were not thinking clearly or had other motives.

Everything you do during a SD situation will be picked apart. The less stupid shit you do, the less they have to hang you with.

I wouldn't completely clam up to the cops, though I would be extremely careful or vague about everything I say. Basically acknowledge you were attacked, had a fear of death, and no other recourse. You will not get a free pass on the day of the shooting, so don't expect it. Do remember you will also be a target for the family of the attacker.

Thats it.

Interesting thread but in reality, unless you are a highly trained member of the military special forces, when faced with an imminent lethal threat, your reactions will not be anything like you think they may be in the real situation. You will experience a whole series of psychological and physical issues, such as cognitive narrowing - i.e. you may not remember hearing the shots, or what you were thinking ( likely as not you'll not be thinking, just reacting) as your body is flooded with adrenaline and tries to cope. The best you can hope for is that your panic and fight -flight reaction does not render you incapable of action. Sure, we use Mozambique in IDPA and many can get off three accurate down zero shots in quick time. We can practice in the dojo and in competition fighting, but faced with the real thing, you may not react as you expect The adrenaline is from the competition, not a life threatening situation which makes it totally different.

We do really odd things under stress - things we would never imagine while sitting in the comfort of our favorite chair contemplating our actions in the face of a deadly situation.

CrossX is right on the money. Shoot till the threat is neutralised, then no more.

Very true.

 

[45collector]

...I cant say that in my own home with females present that someone who broke in with force or with ill intent is likely to have a great day. I'm not going to preach on some exterminate all targets theme, or press forward with extreme vigilance, nor am I going to break out the shoe polish to paint under my eyes; however I am fully aware that if I am rendered disabled there is a significant chance of the situation becoming a repeat of that horror story that occurred in CT. I cannot take that chance.

My views on this issue may be a little different than those of you who are family men. I have no wife, kids or dependants. If/when I do decide to start a family, I'm sure my views will change. If I had a family I'd be more apt to use deadly force to insure that they'd be safe. But then again, as stated, People may react unpredictably when faced with sudden stress. So who knows what I'd do if suddenly awoke by someone in my bedroom.

 

[M1911]

In this state you are obliged to attempt escape if encountered with a threat. Most folks believe that if you're in your home, that obligation dissappears.

You seem to be implying that there is a duty to retreat when you are inside your own home. That is simply not correct (provided the perp is unlawfully in your home).

Here in MA, there is a duty to retreat if you are outside of your home. There is no duty to retreat in MA when inside your own home.

CHAPTER 278. TRIALS AND PROCEEDINGS BEFORE JUDGMENT

Chapter 278: Section 8A. Killing or injuring a person unlawfully in a dwelling; defense

Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/278-8a.htm

 

[DickWanner]

I'm going to put front site of my G29 onto the threat and keep firing until the threat stops. If it ends up being 10+1 then I will reload my 15rd backup and assess the situation quickly to determine if more firepower is needed.

 

[45collector]

You seem to be implying that there is a duty to retreat when you are inside your own home. That is simply not correct (provided the perp is unlawfully in your home).

Here in MA, there is a duty to retreat if you are outside of your home. There is no duty to retreat in MA when inside your own home.



http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/278-8a.htm

That is correct M1911, but see how they word it. A defense might be able to prove that the person was not intent on causing you great bodily injury or death. In other states, if an intruder is inside your home, you can shoot and kill them. No questions asked. Obviously I don't want to be trying to figure out if an intruder is going to kill me or not in a moment of high stress. Which is to say that if I can get them out of my house without having to put bullets in them, I'm going that route.

 

[FunYun]

That is correct M1911, but see how they word it. A defense might be able to prove that the person was not intent on causing you great bodily injury or death. In other states, if an intruder is inside your home, you can shoot and kill them. No questions asked. Obviously I don't want to be trying to figure out if an intruder is going to kill me or not in a moment of high stress. Which is to say that if I can get them out of my house without having to put bullets in them, I'm going that route.

The defense is not based on the intruders intent but your 'reasonable belief' that he is going to inflict harm. Its also pretty much assumed that breaking into an inhabited dwelling is intent to do harm.

 

[FunYun]

IANAL. It is my understanding that in MA you must believe you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury to be justified in using deadly force. The mere fact that an intruder is in your home is not, in and of itself, justification for using deadly force in MA. So yes, you could go to jail in MA for shooting an intruder in your home.

Yes, simply being in the home illegally will likely not fly, but it is 90% there. Basically, if the intruder does not turn tail and run at the sight you, its pretty much assumed he intends to attack you.

 

[45collector]

Sorry guys, I think I've floated this thread off topic a little. But my main point is using discretion. Either an attacker will stop after 1 shot, or he'll stop after several. I hope I would use the proper discretion to fire or not fire if I were suddenly faced with an intruder in my home. I'm not implying that one should risk life and limb in an attempt to avoid any legal ramifications, If indeed you believe you will be harmed. I'm of the mindset:
Better to be judged by twelve than carried out by 6.
I'd rather be calling the police saying "I've got an intruder at gunpoint, and no one is harmed.", than "I've got a dead body in my hallway."

 

[Jaxon]

I'd rather be calling the police saying "I've got an intruder at gunpoint, and no one is harmed.", than "I've got a dead body in my hallway."

An iffy scenario at best. What's to prevent him/her/it/them from becoming a threat with the thought of arrest? All this while you're on the phone?

Of course, YMMV

 

[Mike-Mike]

"I've got an intruder at gunpoint, and no one is harmed.", than "I've got a dead body in my hallway."

Keep in mind when reporting: No warm body is a dead man. They require medical attention until a Doctor decides they are dead.

"I need an ambulance for a shot intruder. He is not moving and is leaking pretty bad, I don't think he is breathing, Come quick!"

 

[45collector]

Keep in mind when reporting: No warm body is a dead man. They require medical attention until a Doctor decides they are dead.

"I need an ambulance for a shot intruder. He is not moving and is leaking pretty bad, I don't think he is breathing, Come quick!"

I know, the "dead body" was just for bluntness effect.

 

[bvet4dog]

dont forget... the placement of your shots are very important. you cant just randomly shoot them. they have to to be virtually attacking you.

for instance, if you stopped that person and he's standing right there in shock seeing that you have a gun and you're armed meanwhile he got nothing or a knife... Then you take a shot at him because you were nervous or just wanted to get rid of that burglar...... You can get in trouble for that because he/she DID nothing to harm you. That'll put you to life in prison. My gramp best friend gone through that and he's still facing numerous of trails.

OR

If the attacker/burglar IS coming after you or attacking in any sorts of ways. Yes take the shots the person untill he/she is down. Dont forget, your placement of shots are important. dont shoot sideways/behind of the person head. And DO NOT shoot behind that person. Because it's very hard to prove that he didnt start walking away and you just shot him. Anyways, if you're going to take a shot at him, better off having him dead than alive because if he's alive... it'll make your life even harder in court.

just think about it thats all. You still wouldn't want to take a life away. Just give 2 options and it'll be fine.

"get ouf of my house, go on and live your life. dont break into any one's house again... or you can die here right now on my floor. What is it gonna be?"

he will i mean WILL WALK! because he knows you mean business and you are not messing around.