fid card and ar 15's

[Len-2A Training]

I've never understood the legal genesis of the "if it shipped with" theory. The law doesn't appear to include any such wording, so I can only assume that's someone's interpretation. I don't see how it could be correct - the MGL is very clear on this one.


EDIT: I see that wording in 501 CMR 7.09, I just don't understand where in the actual law it came from.

It's on the Large-Cap Roster here:

This roster has been compiled in accordance with M.G.L. c.140, §131¾. It contains weapons determined to have been originally manufactured for the civilian retail consumer market as large capacity weapons as defined by M.G.L. c. 140, § 121

So it was added by GCAB and approved wording per Secretary of Public Safety.

 

[jasons]

Yes, 501 CMR 7.02 Definitions:



The bolded section indeed is NOT included in MGL but was intended as such (per research that GCAB did with authors of Ch. 180). No argument that this whole situation is ambiguous . . . and if GOAL was doing its job (IMNSHO) they would have addressed this legislatively (with a small bill) to correct this, but TTBOMK they have never addressed this separately (where it might actually pass into law).

---------

Yes, even my single-stack 1911s are capable of holding a large-cap mag and therefore by MGL definition "must be" LTC-A (large-cap) ONLY! Again, not intended, just "unintended consequences" where idiots that have no grasp on the subject write laws.

I don't see that additional wording in the version I'm looking at:
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/chsb/firearms/501-cmr-7.pdf

In any case, I'd be more concerned with what the actual laws actually says, not what the regulations say. If there's a conflict I would assume the MGLs would win. (I could be wrong.)

- - - Updated - - -

So it was added by GCAB and approved wording per Secretary of Public Safety.

Right, but based on what law? Unless I'm mistaken the GCAB does not have the power to over-ride MGL.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I don't see that additional wording in the version I'm looking at:
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/chsb/firearms/501-cmr-7.pdf

In any case, I'd be more concerned with what the actual laws actually says, not what the regulations say. If there's a conflict I would assume the MGLs would win. (I could be wrong.)

- - - Updated - - -



Right, but based on what law? Unless I'm mistaken the GCAB does not have the power to over-ride MGL.

It's in that CMR, I lifted it verbatim in my quote.

CMRs are NOT supposed to make new law but interpret existing law and how to enforce it. In a courtroom it's a crap-shoot what will be given precedence. Common Sense (not very common) pointed out by a good firearms-knowledgeable attorney should make the judge realize that the law was written wrong, but I wouldn't want to bet 10 years (and PP status) of my life on that.

And GCAB may draft the CMR, but it isn't "passed" into administrative law until the Secretary of Public Safety signs off on it.

 

[Kevlar]

I see that wording in 501 CMR 7.09, I just don't understand where in the actual law it came from.

It doesn't.

CMRs (just as CFRs on the Federal level) generally clarify or expand upon the statutes.

Unless I'm mistaken the GCAB does not have the power to over-ride MGL.

Actually, they (EOPSS) are tasked by MGL 140-131 3/4 with promulgating regulations with the advice of the GCAB.

 

[jasons]

It's in that CMR, I lifted it verbatim in my quote.

I believe you, I just can't find it. The version I have is dated 7/27/07 - are you looking at a different version by any chance?

CMRs are NOT supposed to make new law but interpret existing law and how to enforce it.

Sure, so then how do they read what's written in black and white in 140 / 121 and "interpret" a concept that has no legal basis whatsoever? It's like they pulled this "originally shipped" concept (which as we've seen is deeply flawed) out of thin air. That's not "interpretation" that's legislation by the executive branch, which is not how government is supposed to work.


Setting aside the CMRs for a minute, even if you subscribe to the "roster is right" theory how can you explain away the "Weapons not listed on this roster may also be large capacity weapons if they are semi-automatic and are capable of accepting or readily modifiable to accept a large capacity feeding device" wording? Clearly the roster is not all-inclusive, and clearly a rifle like a mini-14 is "capable of accepting." How is it NOT large capacity?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I clicked on the link you provided. I also have similar links on my machine that I went to as well. Unsure of date but CMRs rarely change.

That interpretation was created between 1998 and 2004, before the Fed Ban sunsetted. They never anticipated that almost every mfr would suddenly be selling unmarked large-cap mags and ship their guns with them after the sunset! It really wasn't an interpretive problem back then . . . it certainly is now.

 

[TOM1960]

Pretty sure you're riiiiiight...

Doubt it. I bought mine in NH from a FFL dealer, who said no problem. Completed the ATF yellow form, forked over the cash and walked out with the Mini 14 and 300 rounds of 5.56 ammo. No problem! Didn't have to pay sales tax either!

 

[TOM1960]

I know you desperately want to be right, but you're not.

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

So, you know more than the FFL dealer? I will print out this thread. I am sure that he will be amused that a non-licensed amateur like yourself thinks that he knows more about gun laws than a true professional!

 

[skeetshooter]

im free state bound soon enough anyway. just figured id ask. my first free state purchase is going to be an rpk

 

[jasons]

So, you know more than the FFL dealer? I will print out this thread. I am sure that he will be amused that a non-licensed amateur like yourself thinks that he knows more about gun laws than a true professional!

I know a bit more about MA gun laws than the average dealer in NH, that's for sure. I also know how to read.


Here's a really simple question for you:
"Is your Mini-14 semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device?"

Yes or no

 

[TOM1960]

It's on the Large-Cap Roster here:



So it was added by GCAB and approved wording per Secretary of Public Safety.

Len, it looks like anything can be considered high-capacity or even a machine gun. Hyman S. Lebman, a Texas gunsmith and custom saddle maker, was infamous for being the armorer of the Prohibition-era gangsters. He specialized in turning M1911A1 pistols in .45 ACP and .38 Super into machine guns. He even provided his products with Thompson-type front grips and muzzle brakes. The .38 Super versions were prized by such notorious criminals as "Baby Face" Nelson, since they could penetrate the vests worn by LEOs, as well as the heavy steel of the automobiles used at the time. He also equipped these guns with custom-made 25-round magazines. Does this mean that all M1911 pistols are machine guns? Certainly not. After Lebman got nailed on Texas state charges for manufacturing illegal firearms, he served his punishment, retired and became a manufacturer of custom saddles and other equestrian gear.

 

[TOM1960]

I know a bit more about MA gun laws than the average dealer in NH, that's for sure. I also know how to read.


Here's a really simple question for you:
"Is your Mini-14 semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device?"

Yes or no

It could also be turned into a machine gun, with a couple of minutes of filing down the sear catch. Is it a machine gun, yes or no? My Remington 870 can accept 14" barrels and can easily be modified by cutting down its existing 18" barrel. Is it a NFA "short-barreled-shotgun"? Yes or no?

 

[jasons]

It could also be turned into a machine gun, with a couple of minutes of filing down the sear catch. Is it a machine gun, yes or no? My Remington 870 can accept 14" barrels and can easily be modified by cutting down its existing 18" barrel. Is it a NFS "short-barreled-shotgun? Yes or no?

No and no, but as you are aware that's not how those laws are written so the comparison in not valid.

I answered your question, now answer mine.

 

[TOM1960]

No and no, but as you are aware that's not how those laws are written so the comparison in not valid.

I answered your question, now answer mine.

So, now you are a firearms lawyer as well? You "know" how the law is written? Which law school did you graduate from? What is your MA BBO number? No, sorry Jason, I think that licensed professionals (FFL dealers and attorneys) know just a bit more about firearms laws than you do. Just my opinion. They are licensed; you are not. That is the difference.

 

[jasons]

So, now you are a firearms lawyer as well? You "know" how the law is written? Which law school did you graduate from? What is your MA BBO number? No, sorry Jason, I think that licensed professionals (FFL dealers and attorneys) know just a bit more about firearms laws than you do. Just my opinion. They are licensed; you are not. That is the difference.

Yes, I do know how the law is written. It's published for everyone to read. You can read it for yourself too, here it is again in case you missed it the first 50 times:
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

“Large capacity weapon”, any firearm, rifle or shotgun: (i) that is semiautomatic with a fixed large capacity feeding device; (ii) that is semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device; (iii) that employs a rotating cylinder capable of accepting more than ten rounds of ammunition in a rifle or firearm and more than five shotgun shells in the case of a shotgun or firearm; or (iv) that is an assault weapon. The term “large capacity weapon” shall be a secondary designation and shall apply to a weapon in addition to its primary designation as a firearm, rifle or shotgun and shall not include: (i) any weapon that was manufactured in or prior to the year 1899; (ii) any weapon that operates by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that is a single-shot weapon; (iv) any weapon that has been modified so as to render it permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a large capacity weapon; or (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable large capacity weapon.

You don't need a law degree to be able to read.

With that said, you're right I'm not a lawyer and I could be wrong. If you can get a lawyer to explain how the black and white law above means something other than what it says, please have them post here to clear this up once and for all. I'll be waiting.

In any case I wouldn't trust a dealer to know the law, especially one in another state. There are well documented examples of dealers giving people bad advice, selling people stuff they shouldn't have, etc. It happens all the time.

 

[TOM1960]

Yes, I do know how the law is written. It's published for everyone to read. You can read it for yourself too, here it is again in case you missed it the first 50 times:
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121


You don't need a law degree to be able to read.

With that said, you're right I'm not a lawyer and I could be wrong. If you can get a lawyer to explain how the black and white law above means something other than what it says, please have them post here to clear this up once and for all. I'll be waiting.

In any case I wouldn't trust a dealer to know the law, especially one in another state. There are well documented examples of dealers giving people bad advice, selling people stuff they shouldn't have, etc. It happens all the time.

Well, if you want to discuss illegalities, I remember back in the mid-1970s, when I was in high school, a classmate (and friend) had a .22 caliber semi-automatic Remington Nylon 66. It took a 14-round tubular magazine that fed into the back of the stock. Well, the rifle started to malfunction. One pull of the trigger would typically lead to a three or four round burst if the rifle was loaded with certain types of ammo (such as high-velocity loads). Oh, yes, we had plenty of fun with that rifle. Until my friend's dad found out what was happening and what the federal consequences would be. Needless to say, he took possession of the Nylon 66 and sent it to the dealer to be repaired, ASAP. Fortunately, none of us ended up in club fed for possession of a "machine gun". Today, I am not sure what would happen. Maybe the dealer/gunsmith would not have hesitated to rat us out. Times were sure different then. People used common sense. Unless you were a complete trouble-making A-Hole, you were pretty much left alone.

 

[jasons]

Times were sure different then. People used common sense. Unless you were a complete trouble-making A-Hole, you were pretty much left alone.

Sadly those days are long gone. (And things are going to get worse before they get better.)

 

[jasons]

It's on the Large-Cap Roster

Re-reading that it sort of makes sense. They're saying that this is a roster of guns that were originally manufactured as "large capacity." That doesn't mean that guns that were originally manufactured as large capacity are the ONLY ones that meet the criteria, just that those are the ones they reviewed and put on the list. They go on to say that the roster is not inclusive and that other guns not on the list can also be large capacity if they meet the definition in the law.

The wording is sloppy and I see where the confusion might come from.

 

[white feather]

Jasons, congratulations! You passed your first new mod test. (Amature) Looks like Swamp Yankee's prediction will not happen. Good job. Thank you.
White Feather

 

[Terminator03]

So, now you are a firearms lawyer as well? You "know" how the law is written? Which law school did you graduate from? What is your MA BBO number? No, sorry Jason, I think that licensed professionals (FFL dealers and attorneys) know just a bit more about firearms laws than you do. Just my opinion. They are licensed; you are not. That is the difference.

Tom, I don't have a dog in this fight between you and Jason, but I feel the need to point out that you couldn't be more wrong in assuming that just because someone holds an FFL, in another state no less, does not at all mean he would know more about MA law than some of our members here. Most FFLs and even police only have a general understanding of applicable laws, and for the most part you can NOT trust their opinion on anything legally related. In the case of an FFL, they are most likely going to try to err on the side of caution to protect their FFL (at least in a highly restrictive state such as MA), and will usually OVER-ENFORCE the law to do so. For instance my local FFL won't even sell or take pre-ban magazines, same with Slidefire stocks in on trade because they would rather not deal with the risk even though both are perfectly legal to own here. An FFL in NH would have even less clarity than a MA FFL, so he would just go by his knowledge of past practice where Mini 14s were FID legal in the past. With Police, they have the ability to arrest you if the law is not perfectly clear (and in this case it most definitely is NOT), and then let the courts sort it out. They don't need to have a deep knowledge of law, only a general understanding. So don't assume that these guys automatically know more about MGL than some of our members here!

 

[delgrifith]

This thread is reason number 475 to move to a free state.

 

[swatgig]

The Deputy Chief Counsel for EOPS is reading what is posted here and is probably writing the Subpoena to get the real name/address of the OP! [And no, I am NOT kidding!]

The Deputy Chief Counsel for EOPS is an ass.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The Deputy Chief Counsel for EOPS is an ass.

 

[skeetshooter]

with any luck im idaho bound next weekend. just waiting for my car to be ready. figured id ask in the meantime though. first 2 things on my list. xdm 3.8 in 9mm and an ak with all the scary features

 

[cekim]

It's not MY definition, it's MGL Chapter 140, Section 121's definition. And yes, per the letter of the law that's correct.

Are you trying to read MGL and go off what it says literally? How narrow minded of you... Tyranny of language, you need to set it free and allow it to express itself...

 

[TOM1960]

Tom, I don't have a dog in this fight between you and Jason, but I feel the need to point out that you couldn't be more wrong in assuming that just because someone holds an FFL, in another state no less, does not at all mean he would know more about MA law than some of our members here. Most FFLs and even police only have a general understanding of applicable laws, and for the most part you can NOT trust their opinion on anything legally related. In the case of an FFL, they are most likely going to try to err on the side of caution to protect their FFL (at least in a highly restrictive state such as MA), and will usually OVER-ENFORCE the law to do so. For instance my local FFL won't even sell or take pre-ban magazines, same with Slidefire stocks in on trade because they would rather not deal with the risk even though both are perfectly legal to own here. An FFL in NH would have even less clarity than a MA FFL, so he would just go by his knowledge of past practice where Mini 14s were FID legal in the past. With Police, they have the ability to arrest you if the law is not perfectly clear (and in this case it most definitely is NOT), and then let the courts sort it out. They don't need to have a deep knowledge of law, only a general understanding. So don't assume that these guys automatically know more about MGL than some of our members here!

Do you know of any FID holders who were charged with possession of a Mini 14 and the standard 5-round magazine that it was shipped with or with FID-legal aftermarket 10-round magazines? I sure don't. If you have any such info, would you be so kind as to post a link here on this forum? Thanks in advance.

 

[Rader]

Because there is a lack of prosecution records for any given law, doesn't mean the law doesn't exist. I don't know of any cases where people have been prosecuted for having post ban high capacity magazines. Doesn't mean they are legal. I wouldn't want to be the test case for the state either, especially not in today's atmosphere. The wording in the law is pretty straight forward, no one here is saying they AGREE with it, but IT'S THERE.

Also related, buy yourself a single shot receiver. Have whatever features you want. Or build a compliant rifle on a single shot receiver, and then when you get a Class A upgrade to a regular semi auto receiver.

 

[atilla]

i called the ATF and they asked me to email over a link to this thread, will let you know what they say.

 

[swatgig]

i called the ATF and they asked me to email over a link to this thread, will let you know what they say.

Did you call them to let them know the sun came up today?

 

[atilla]

Did you call them to let them know the sun came up today?

the guy who takes those calls is furloughed. we usually do talk about the weather, figures i'd be the mole here, right?