It would be interesting to know when the safety was disabled. was it just for this kid, at the request or with the knowledge of the father so that his kid was able to shoot? who agreed to this and who knew?
+1
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
Be sure to enter the NES/MFS May Giveaway ***Canik METE SFX***
It would be interesting to know when the safety was disabled. was it just for this kid, at the request or with the knowledge of the father so that his kid was able to shoot? who agreed to this and who knew?
Coupla points:
The father isn't the plaintif - the estate of the kid is.
Who on this forum would let an 8 year old kid fire THEIR machine gun, and not be thinking that they are 100% responsible for the outcome when the smoke clears?\
It's not about who is to blame... It's about $$$ (multi-million dollar lawsuit)
I used to believe were I at the event in question, I might have intervened to stop it or at least say something. However, after being at the Pumpkin Shoot this weekend, I realized I wouldn't have. When parents were with their children shooting, it never would have occurred to me to say a word. I made the assumption that the parent knows the child better than I do and it is the parent's job to parent.
Ultimately, it is the father's fault. It is a tragedy, but to blame anyone but the father to me seems absurd. If I had brought my child to the Pumpkin shoot, just to watch, and I left him unattended and he ran out on a hot range and was killed, should my wife sue NES? The gun club? The ROs? The person who shot him? Or is would it be solely my fault for not parenting him properly in a potentially dangerous situation?
This isn't rocket science.
If you're running a firearms event that's open to the entire public and furnishing arms, you're responsible to see that reasonable safety precautions are taken.
I cannot find the post, but a previous post, IIRC by an attorney who was at a GOAL event running a table, stated that "dad" was told no and then picked up a bb/pellet gun and handed it to "son," resulting in a ND.Of course - the father is a tool. No argument there. Still - if someone gets hurt with one of my guns it's my fault. If some toolbag father tells me that it's perfectly fine for his young kid to fire my weapon I know better than to just take his word for it. As a responsible gun owner, it's on me to take the appropriate safety precautions whenever anyone handles my guns. To me this is the definition of personal responsibility.
put it this way - the kid with the toolbag father would still be alive today if the "expert" who owned the Uzi had taken some basic safety precautions.
Agree or disagree... I have to say this is a meaningful, interesting, and respectful conversation. The different points of view all have validity, and it is a great discourse that ranges from events at the machine gun shoot to responsibility today in society.
And there has not been any name calling... WOOHOO!!!
Thanks all,
Rich
Agree or disagree... I have to say this is a meaningful, interesting, and respectful conversation. The different points of view all have validity, and it is a great discourse that ranges from events at the machine gun shoot to responsibility today in society.
And there has not been any name calling... WOOHOO!!!
Thanks all,
Rich
Sadly this is the new America. We have shifted from parental responsibility to "it takes a village to raise a child" Many of the posts in this thread agree with Hilary Clinton... It baffles my f-ing mind.
Who on this forum would let an 8 year old kid fire THEIR machine gun, and not be thinking that they are 100% responsible for the outcome when the smoke clears?
Who on this forum would disable a safety on THEIR machine gun and then let an 8 year old kid fire it?
Who on this forum would listen to the opinion of some unknown ass-hat of a father who encouraged you to let his 8 year old fire YOUR machine gun?
Don't get me wrong, I blame the father plenty.
Perhaps I just live my life differently ............ MY GUNS = MY RESPONSIBILTY
The arguments I've been making here is that in ADDITION to the dad, the guy that owned the gun has some responsibilty as well. If I lend my car to an 8 year old am I blame free if he runs someone down with it? Even IF his father tells me 'it's OK, he's a really good driver'?
Holding the guy responsible that enabled this to happen by disabling the safety for his part of the liability is a far cry from Hilary's crap about a village being responsible for the raising of a child.
Hilary was trying to make the argument that government and society as a whole have a moral duty to take an ACTIVE role in the raising of everyone's kids - which is pure bull. I am the parent and am responsible for shaping the character of my child and am therefore responsible if that kid turns into a hood or some form of waste product.
The arguments I've been making here is that in ADDITION to the dad, the guy that owned the gun has some responsibilty as well. If I lend my car to an 8 year old am I blame free if he runs someone down with it? Even IF his father tells me 'it's OK, he's a really good driver'?
The argument about these other people having a SHARE of the responsibility actually SUPPORTS the idea of personal responsibility in that we're holding them responsible for their actions. Dumping it all on the dad is just as bad as him trying to dump it on the event organizers or the gun itself.
Adults man up and take responsibility for their actions.
If you hand me a automatic pistol with the grip safety strapped down with a rubber band I'm not giving it to my 8 year old son. The dad made the decision to take the gun in that condition.
I am not defending dad...but you are assuming that dad recognized that and new it to be what it was.
I suspect what this will hinge upon who should be responsible for knowing this (micro-uzi in a kid's hands) would be a bad thing. Driving is common knowledge. Full auto firearms are (unfortunately) not. If you buy that common knowledge of FA firearm safety does not exist and therefore knowledge of their dangers (beyond the obvious) is not common knowledge (that would be barrel rise folks, not the inherent danger in the muzzle end alone), then the next step is the "professionals" at the event. Who I feel bad for in this liability mess is the 15 yro who got caught in the middle. He is the liability link between the dead kid and everyone else. His "guilt" (aka; liability) is really important to both cases. Ie; the parents can't have him be too liable, or they lose the link further up the chain and the "professional" supervision wants him to be 100% liable to protect themselves. It basically means no one will settle with him. He will be thrown under the bus by everyone on both sides and he is as much a victim of adult stupidity as is the dead kid.
I am not defending dad...but you are assuming that dad recognized that and new it to be what it was.
Well if he didn't know enough to know then he shouldn't have put his son on the line shooting something he knows nothing about. Again it's all on him.
If you hand me a automatic pistol with the grip safety strapped down with a rubber band I'm not giving it to my 8 year old son. The dad made the decision to take the gun in that condition. That would be like you handing me a live grenade with the lever pin removed and me handing it to my son while saying "Becareful..." It's total horse shit that the father let this go down. Period.
Seriously this witch hunt is asinine. Blame the father, you don't need to charge him with anything he's already been punished enough.
What if the owner of the gun was not even there? What if he lent his micr-Uzi to a properly licensed friend who wanted to use it for the event?
Don't make up responsibility. Place responsibility on those who were there at that time who were in a position to prevent it.
Primarily... the father, whoever disabled the safety, and whoever placed the fifteen year old range officer in the position he was in.
If you go to an amusement park and there is a cool ride there and there are "safety" people there and they are letting kids on do you not put a leap of faith in the company running it that it is safe?
Do you know how the ride works? Would you know if there was a safety feature disable?
Again.. not defending dad... he should have known better but let's blame him for the right reasons and not ignore the fact that there was more blame to pass around
The keeper of the gun chose to lend the gun to the dad, knowing the dad was having the kid fire it - responsibility
YES the dad has way more, but the other guy isn't scott free either.
This was a shoot. If the father doesn't know about guns he better educate himself before letting his son shoot auto.
THE BOTTOM LINE, IF YOU'RE GOING TO LET YOUR CHILDREN PLAY WITH GUNS YOU BETTER KNOW WTF YOU'RE DOING.
IT'S THE FATHERS FAULT.