Fa-10 a pre 7/20 lower?

[Cearex]

I would think the burden would be on the accused to defend themselves. That's why I would like to know why it would be a big deal to get a copy of the 4473.

 

[GM-GUY]

The burden is always on the prosecution ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’. You can bring additional exculpatory evidence, but burden is always in the prosecution.

 

[TLB]

So how do you prove ownership of an 80% lower that NOW is a complete firearm but you don’t have the receipt for it.

This is backwards. The state needs to prove its case, not the other way around. I'm not saving receipts for something that isn't even a real law (7/20 BS).

 

[kalash]

I would think the burden would be on the accused to defend themselves. That's why I would like to know why it would be a big deal to get a copy of the 4473.

You are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

 

[steve8140]

If Maura ever decides to prosecute someone she could very easily find out where the lower came from and when.
1) her or ATF looks through the dealers 4473
2) manufacturer says where the lower went to as a store, store has the 4473.

The part about retaining evidence is bullshit and it’s on the state to prove. It would make your life easier to have proof up front.

 

[mg42doc]

If Maura ever decides to prosecute someone she could very easily find out where the lower came from and when.
1) her or ATF looks through the dealers 4473
2) manufacturer says where the lower went to as a store, store has the 4473.

The part about retaining evidence is bullshit and it’s on the state to prove. It would make your life easier to have proof up front.

I'm not sure she has ready access to 4473s without jumping through hoops.....wasnt the gun parlor (and other FFLs who got jammed up by the state) sending her copies of 4473s at her command?
Why do that if she already had ready access?

 

[CrackPot]

What would be the harm in turning over a copy? Just curious.

While the front of the 4473 is filled out by the purchaser, the balance of the form is filled out by the dealer.

If Maura ever decides to prosecute someone she could very easily find out where the lower came from and when.
1) her or ATF looks through the dealers 4473
2) manufacturer says where the lower went to as a store, store has the 4473.

The part about retaining evidence is bullshit and it’s on the state to prove. It would make your life easier to have proof up front.

The state has no access to 4473s. The ATF has access.

 

[Drix]

AG's New AWB - 7/20/2016

I'm surprised the email about the receiver didn't make the q+a updates. Guess it because it provides a path to legal ownership and not a squashing.

 

[Asaltweapon]

You are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

As of when?

 

[steve8140]

I'm not sure she has ready access to 4473s without jumping through hoops.....wasnt the gun parlor (and other FFLs who got jammed up by the state) sending her copies of 4473s at her command?
Why do that if she already had ready access?

If she wants to prosecute someone she can go f*** herself, go through the proper channels and still easily find out the info. She would open herself up for a lawsuit which is why she’s done nothing so far. Your correct that she doesn’t have access to 4473’s but I’d bet she could get them with a simple phone call.

 

[amm5061]

You are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Except when guns are involved, and then you're guilty no matter what, "cuz gunz!" Unless you're a frequent flyer in the marsupial justice system. Then you get a slap on the wrist and released back onto the street.

 

[Beretta92FS]

The state has no access to 4473s. The ATF has access.

Unless you bought from The Gun Parlor of course...

 

[kalash]

As of when?

Serious answer: English common law, 5th/6th14th amendments, and Coffin v. US.

Except when guns are involved, and then you're guilty no matter what, "cuz gunz!"

If you truly believed that, you either wouldn't have any guns or you'd be rallying patriots for an armed revolt.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

While the front of the 4473 is filled out by the purchaser, the balance of the form is filled out by the dealer.

The state has no access to 4473s. The ATF has access.

That doesn't answer the question....

 

[bostonasphalt2]

I'm not sure she has ready access to 4473s without jumping through hoops.....wasnt the gun parlor (and other FFLs who got jammed up by the state) sending her copies of 4473s at her command?
Why do that if she already had ready access?

not to derail this thread but I dont know why The Gun Parlor continues to post here. They just posted up a preban AR for 3200. f*** right off with that bullshit.

 

[namedpipes]

Because not everybody heard about what they did.

 

[Asaltweapon]

not to derail this thread but I dont know why The Gun Parlor continues to post here. They just posted up a preban AR for 3200. f*** right off with that bullshit.

Goes well with 1000 lowers. LOL.

 

[Palladin]

If you build out a lower, bought before 7/20, then FA10 it as a firearm, the burden of proof is on the AGO.
They would seek out the manufacturer, the LGS the lower was sent to, the 4473 from the ATF, hence your proof of possession before 7/20.

 

[Radtekk]

So I should answer the dude that sent me a PM asking if I had any "Pre Healy" lowers? I mean, he's been a non-paying member here since Friday, ZERO posts, ZERO feedback, not Green, must be legit, right?

 

[HarryPottar]

Hypothetically, If one had an unbuilt lower, that you decide to build today, and due to the uncertainty of the law in MA. Could that person clam the 5th amendment and not file an FA10 due to the fear incriminating oneself. The same way criminals can not be prosecuted for unregistered firearms under a similar ruling.

Note to AG office, all my firearms are registered.

Haynes v. United States - Wikipedia

Added link for reference for Haynes vs USA

Harry

 

[drgrant]

I would think the burden would be on the accused to defend themselves. That's why I would like to know why it would be a big deal to get a copy of the 4473.

I wouldn't want a copy of a 4473 in my house, period end, full stop. In the rare event that I even had one, it'd be stored offsite somewhere.

Also, What is the state going to charge someone with? violating "MGL C-retarded section-dumbhealybullshit-1 " ? Until a court vets this out, or the legislature passes a law, her garbage/spew is not law.

-Mike

 

[Cearex]

I wouldn't want a copy of a 4473 in my house, period end, full stop. In the rare event that I even had one, it'd be stored offsite somewhere.

Also, What is the state going to charge someone with? violating "MGL C-retarded section-dumbhealybullshit-1 " ? Until a court vets this out, or the legislature passes a law, her garbage/spew is not law.

-Mike

Please explain to me why it would be a bad thing for you to be in possession of a form/ document. I just don't understand the logic.

 

[evalance]

So I should answer the dude that sent me a PM asking if I had any "Pre Healy" lowers? I mean, he's been a non-paying member here since Friday, ZERO posts, ZERO feedback, not Green, must be legit, right?

Might x my neighbor lol

 

[kalash]

Hypothetically, If one had an unbuilt lower, that you decide to build today, and due to the uncertainty of the law in MA. Could that person clam the 5th amendment and not file an FA10 due to the fear incriminating oneself. The same way criminals can not be prosecuted for unregistered firearms under a similar ruling.

Note to AG office, all my firearms are registered.

Harry

Keep in mind that per MGL Chapter 140 S128B failing to file an FA10 is punishable by a fine only for a first offense.

Section 128B. Any resident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than from a licensee under section one hundred and twenty-two or a person authorized to sell firearms under section one hundred and twenty-eight A, and any nonresident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than such a licensee or person, and receives such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, within the commonwealth shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services the name and address of the seller or donor and the buyer or donee, together with a complete description of the firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, including the caliber, make and serial number. Whoever violates any provision of this section shall for the first offense be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1,000 and for any subsequent offense by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than ten years.

Not only are you not going to jail for your first offense, but here's some more food for thought that I've posted before:

-If you build that lower into a rifle, did you "purchase or obtain" a firearm? The law doesn't say anything about creating a firearm.
-You're supposed to take action within seven days of "receiving" the firearm. Again, if you built it yourself, did you actually "receive" it? Seems like the word "receive" implies that someone handed it over to you in a transaction but IANAL.
-How would Maura prove that you finished the gun more than seven days before you were caught with it?
-There's a separate section that talks about filing an eFA10 (see below). The one quoted above doesn't say anything about the portal and specifically tells you to notify the commissioner in writing. How would Maura prove that your letter didn't get lost in the mail or isn't sitting at the bottom of a giant stack on the commissioner's intern's desk?

This is where the eFA10 form comes up, S128A:

Section 128A. The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any person who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers a firearm, rifle or shotgun to a person licensed under said section one hundred and twenty-two, or to a federally licensed firearms dealer or to a federal, state or local historical society, museum or institutional collection open to the public. The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any resident of the commonwealth who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers to other than a federally licensed firearms dealer or organization named above not more than four firearms, including rifles and shotguns in any one calendar year; provided, however, that the seller has a firearm identification card or a license to carry firearms, is an exempt person under the conditions of clauses (n), (o), (r) and (s) of the fourth paragraph of section one hundred and twenty-nine C, or is permitted to transfer ownership under the conditions of section one hundred and twenty-nine D and the purchaser has, in the case of sale or transfer of a firearm, a permit to purchase issued under the provisions of section one hundred and thirty-one A and a firearm identification card issued under section one hundred and twenty-nine B, or has such permit to purchase and is an exempt person under the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine C, or has been issued a license to carry firearms under the provisions of section one hundred and thirty, or in the case of sale or transfer of a rifle or shotgun, the purchaser has a firearm identification card or a license to carry firearms or is an exempt person as hereinbefore stated. Any sale or transfer conducted pursuant to this section shall comply with section 131E and shall, prior to or at the point of sale, be conducted over a real time web portal developed by the department of criminal justice information services. The department of criminal justice information services shall require each person selling or transferring a firearm, shotgun or rifle pursuant to this section to electronically provide, though the portal, such information as is determined to be necessary to verify the identification of the seller and purchaser and ensure that the sale or transfer complies with this section. Upon submission of the required information, the portal shall automatically review such information and display a message indicating whether the seller may proceed with the sale or transfer and shall provide any further instructions for the seller as determined to be necessary by the department of criminal justice information services. The department of criminal justice information services shall keep a record of any sale or transfer conducted pursuant to this section and shall provide the seller and purchaser with verification of such sale or transfer.

-Are you conducting a sale or transfer when you build up a lower?
-I also haven't found anything in the law about registering a firearm that you acquired by means other than a sale. Where does it say that you must register a gun you built? I realize that the FA10 portal says for registration:

Use this option if 1) you are a Massachusetts resident and you obtained a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun from out of state 2) you recently moved to Massachusetts and you wish to record ownership of a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun or 3) you possess a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun and there is no record of the weapon on file with the Firearms Records Bureau.

...but that page isn't the law.


Please convince me that you're legally obligated to file an FA10 on a firearm you built yourself. I've posted this before and haven't gotten any remotely conclusive answers.

 

[Mark from MA]

If you build out a lower, bought before 7/20, then FA10 it as a firearm, the burden of proof is on the AGO.
They would seek out the manufacturer, the LGS the lower was sent to, the 4473 from the ATF, hence your proof of possession before 7/20.

This.....basically they would be proving the fact that it was obtained before 7/20.

Also if you want to call the manufacturer yourself and get a date when it was made, and probably whom it was shipped to, you can do that as well. Anybody with the serial number and name of manufacturer can easily do it. I'm sure lots of guys have lowers that are years older than 7/20, and if the damn thing was was made in like 2013 or something, even if you didn't have a 4473 it would be a pretty hard argument it was shelved for more than 3 years before it was sold.

 

[CWulf]

I see folks on here referring to pre 7/20 AR's. I remember seeing a report that stated in the neighborhood of 2500 rifles were purchased/FA10'd in Mass on July 20. What's the status of those AR's? Are they considered Pre 7/20 or in Mass limbo?

 

[kalash]

I see folks on here referring to pre 7/20 AR's. I remember seeing a report that stated in the neighborhood of 2500 rifles were purchased/FA10'd in Mass on July 20. What's the status of those AR's? Are they considered Pre 7/20 or in Mass limbo?

What limbo? Healey directive only affected dealer sales, not personal.

 

[Cearex]

I wouldn't want a copy of a 4473 in my house, period end, full stop. In the rare event that I even had one, it'd be stored offsite somewhere.

Also, What is the state going to charge someone with? violating "MGL C-retarded section-dumbhealybullshit-1 " ? Until a court vets this out, or the legislature passes a law, her garbage/spew is not law.

-Mike

Again. Why would you not want one in your house?

 

[drgrant]

Again. Why would you not want one in your house?

Because if your house gets searched people can "infer" things from those forms that they have no right to. You always want to maintain control of that kind of thing.