Duty to Retreat: How Does it Apply to Drawing Your Firearm?

[dcmdon]

I disagree.

While he has a lot of insight concerning the mind of criminals, I believe that the course of action that he suggests is colored by the fact that he is a police officer. I believe that here in MA, such actions (drawing early) would not be advisable.

This is absolutely right. The poster in that AR15.com essentially advises brandishing if you feel threatened. Bad idea.

 

[falcon123]

I disagree.

While he has a lot of insight concerning the mind of criminals, I believe that the course of action that he suggests is colored by the fact that he is a police officer. I believe that here in MA, such actions (drawing early) would not be advisable.

When is it too early to draw? When you're getting your head kicked in by the scumbag? When he draws his weapon? Do you wait till he shoots first just to be sure? This guy suggested that you draw as soon as you see a weapon. Don't second guess the criminal which makes sense if you don't cloud your judgement with worrying about the stupid mass laws. It won't matter if you're dead and you can't do much when you're lying in a morgue.

 

[falcon123]

This is absolutely right. The poster in that AR15.com essentially advises brandishing if you feel threatened. Bad idea.

Not true. He says draw as soon as you see a weapon. If you feel threatened he says to act as if you are ready to draw without actually showing your weapon. If a person comes at you with a weapon it is safe to say that he's plans to use it on you. He described the mind of the criminal very well. They think different than you or me.

 

[dcmdon]

Not true. He says draw as soon as you see a weapon. If you feel threatened he says to act as if you are ready to draw without actually showing your weapon. If a person comes at you with a weapon it is safe to say that he's plans to use it on you. He described the mind of the criminal very well. They think different than you or me.

Which part of this don't you understand:

When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

or this

Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough mother****ers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

No weapons mentioned. Although if there is disparity of force it justifies your use of lethal deadly force.

I'm not saying there isn't good stuff in there. I agree with this wholeheartedly:


The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.

 

[falcon123]

Which part of this don't you understand:

When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

or this

Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough mother****ers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

No weapons mentioned. Although if there is disparity of force it justifies your use of lethal deadly force.

I'm not saying there isn't good stuff in there. I agree with this wholeheartedly:


The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.

Your reading comprehension skill seem to be lacking. Fanning your jacket or keeping your hand in your purse is not brandishing or drawing. Same goes for drawing your weapon and keeping it out of view.

 

[M1911]

This guy suggested that you draw as soon as you see a weapon.

No, he didn't. He suggesting drawing well before you saw a weapon.

When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

I don't have any problem with someone suggesting that you draw if you the perp produces a weapon. But that isn't what he suggested. He suggested that if you see two sketchy characters approaching you in the parking lot that you draw your gun -- without seeing any weapon or them saying anything or making any threatening gestures other than approaching you. That advice will put you in jail.

Yes, I want to say alive. I also want to live my life outside of prison.

 

[falcon123]

No, he didn't. He suggesting drawing well before you saw a weapon.



I don't have any problem with someone suggesting that you draw if you the perp produces a weapon. But that isn't what he suggested. He suggested that if you see two sketchy characters approaching you in the parking lot that you draw your gun -- without seeing any weapon or them saying anything or making any threatening gestures other than approaching you. That advice will put you in jail.

Yes, I want to say alive. I also want to live my life outside of prison.

From your last post:
When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there.

i don't see where that suggests that you draw your gun. As for the 2 possible threats attempting to surround you, he suggests you draw BUT keep it hidden against your leg. Quite different than drawing and pointing it at the threat. It's more of a time saving gesture just in case you have to actually draw. You're reading too much into it. If you hesitate and die you don't have to worry about prison. Only you can make the decision whether the threat is real or not while under stressful conditions.

 

[dcmdon]

Your reading comprehension skill seem to be lacking. Fanning your jacket or keeping your hand in your purse is not brandishing or drawing. Same goes for drawing your weapon and keeping it out of view.

So again I ask. What part of

Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!
.. What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

Drawing your gun and holding it beside your leg is brandishing. The original author intends this to be a verbal signal to the BGs not to screw with him.

Its clear what his intent is. He's 90% sure the BGs are actually BGs. That doesn't cut it as far as ethical or legal justification for the use of force. So he brandishes.
Its effective. Nobody would debate that. But he is advocating brandishing based on a suspicion that someone intends to harm you when they have done nothing to actually indicate that that is true.

 

[Tekito]

Although I am new to guns I am not new to these circumstances.

When I lived in CA I was mugged on the way back from the gym. Two a-holes were waiting by my car. As I got closer one of them asked in a friendly tone if it was my car. He quickly said he was just admiring it and started asking me stuff about it. The type of thing a normal person would ask. As he got closer he took out a knife. Luckily he stabbed the gym bag I threw at him.

I yelled for help while wrestling this punk. At the end of the day I broke his arm and he stabbed my ankle. Still have the scar.

I was lucky to walk away from it but not before spending thousands on legal fees and days lost going to court. I'm lucky he didn't have a dirty blade with some terrible disease and all that.

So the answer I've learned to accept is that things can happen a lot faster than you think. Defend yourself because they won't hold back. If you have the upper hand, use it. Just prepare to pay through the nose for it.

As per my attorney's and law enforcement agencies' advice: take every defensive class under the sun so when (God forbid) this sort of thing happens to you, you can show you've done everything possible to be a law abiding citizen. It is generally understood that there is no "by the book" reaction to these situations unless you are trained law enforcement. Taking the classes essentially shows you are reacting as "by the book" as possible. And I quote the police officer I spoke to when signing up for my class. "It's your word against theirs and there is a popular saying among us cops 'Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.'"

Your life is not just your own. You are protecting your family and friends from being victims of a terrible loss as well. Stay safe.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

 

[dcmdon]

Although I am new to guns I am not new to these circumstances.

When I lived in CA I was mugged on the way back from the gym. Two a-holes were waiting by my car. As I got closer one of them asked in a friendly tone if it was my car. He quickly said he was just admiring it and started asking me stuff about it. The type of thing a normal person would ask. As he got closer he took out a knife. Luckily he stabbed the gym bag I threw at him.

I yelled for help while wrestling this punk. At the end of the day I broke his arm and he stabbed my ankle. Still have the scar.

I was lucky to walk away from it but not before spending thousands on legal fees and days lost going to court. I'm lucky he didn't have a dirty blade with some terrible disease and all that.

So the answer I've learned to accept is that things can happen a lot faster than you think. Defend yourself because they won't hold back. If you have the upper hand, use it. Just prepare to pay through the nose for it.

As per my attorney's and law enforcement agencies' advice: take every defensive class under the sun so when (God forbid) this sort of thing happens to you, you can show you've done everything possible to be a law abiding citizen. It is generally understood that there is no "by the book" reaction to these situations unless you are trained law enforcement. Taking the classes essentially shows you are reacting as "by the book" as possible. And I quote the police officer I spoke to when signing up for my class. "It's your word against theirs and there is a popular saying among us cops 'Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.'"

Your life is not just your own. You are protecting your family and friends from being victims of a terrible loss as well. Stay safe.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

Well said. Re: judged by 12 v carried by 6, I heard a similar thing from a cop friend of mine. He also said that if TM had lived, things would have turned out very differently for GZ.

 

[jason6]

its a bad idea on a multitude of levels to produce/brandish a firearm without being ready to use it- i.e. great bodily injury or death. This is especially true in MA.

 

[dcmdon]

Here is another thing that has not been mentioned.

Lets say the guy(s) who have frightened you are not actually bad guys. Your act of brandishing gives them legal and ethical justification to use deadly physical force against YOU!!!

Picture one of the "scary" dudes says he's walking across a parking lot and makes eye contact with you. You fan open your jacket and draw a gun. He's now justified in killing you. You have the opportunity and have just demonstrated ability and jeopardy. Swell.

 

[jason6]

Here is another thing that has not been mentioned.

Lets say the guy(s) who have frightened you are not actually bad guys. Your act of brandishing gives them legal and ethical justification to use deadly physical force against YOU!!!

Picture one of the "scary" dudes says he's walking across a parking lot and makes eye contact with you. You fan open your jacket and draw a gun. He's now justified in killing you. You have the opportunity and have just demonstrated ability and jeopardy. Swell.

+1000

The two "scary looking" dudes that you profiled are really just honest folks coming back from dinner. They coincidentally part ways in front of you because they live in separate directions.

The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.

That guy producing a weapon is now YOU!!!!! It goes both ways!

 

[Skylineracer329]

I am speaking in terms of Boston, but it's probably true elsewhere: do you have any idea at all how much of the world today is covered by cameras? Hint: much more than you'd guess.

Working in the security center of a large building in downtown boston has given me new insight to the term "big brother". Cameras are everywhere, in places you wouldn't expect and big brother is always watching

 

[FreeWillie]

On the scanner Friday.....

Jake xxx proceded to ________. Individual reports that some one was SUSPECTED of having a firearm. Suspect lifted shirt after confrontation with individual and THEY suspect he had a gun.

 

[milktree]

...However, what happens if later, this violent criminal that you did nothing to stop (because you couldn't legally), goes and kills someone(s) else? You inactions turned out to have more deadly consequences.

Ah! The Spiderman scenario!

That seems like a pretty poor line of reasoning as to why you should shoot someone.

 

[mbullism]

....I believe that here in MA, such actions (drawing early) would not be advisable.

I'm not sure how this is "early"... in the OP there was already a knife in play (threat). If the knife is 15 feet away and closing, drawing the gun is an opportunity to diffuse an already escalating situation. If the BG turns and runs, the gun has done it's job... shooting someone is the LAST thing I want to do, even beyond the legal ramifications, but a last resort is just that...a last resort. In that situation there is no way I turn and run, hoping that both BGs have worse hips and knees than I do, but drawing the gun when another weapon is already in play seems prudent. If in the same situation and two imposing guys approach with no weapon shown, IMO that's the time to indicate you have a weapon but not produce it... that scenario evolves into drawing the gun if the BGs keep closing, two on one (threat). I'm not shooting the guy at 15 feet just because he has a knife, but if he closes to ten knowing I have a gun on him we've reached last resort. The OP was in a parking lot late, where presumably there were decent sight lines and distances to work with, including backing while drawn, and hopefully getting something between you.... this notion that if it's time to draw it's time to fire, means waiting until the knife is danger close. No thank you. Firing before the knife is danger close is going to invite all sorts of second guessing.

I fear a more real world situation would involve more of an ambush than being walked up on.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I suggest that you Google "Tueller Drill", study it and then enroll in an NRA Personal Protection in the Home course. It might change your mind on how close is too close! [Disclaimer: I'm an NRA Instructor who teaches that class, next one is later this month, but that isn't why I'm making the suggestion.]

I'm not sure how this is "early"... in the OP there was already a knife in play (threat). If the knife is 15 feet away and closing, drawing the gun is an opportunity to diffuse an already escalating situation. If the BG turns and runs, the gun has done it's job... shooting someone is the LAST thing I want to do, even beyond the legal ramifications, but a last resort is just that...a last resort. In that situation there is no way I turn and run, hoping that both BGs have worse hips and knees than I do, but drawing the gun when another weapon is already in play seems prudent. If in the same situation and two imposing guys approach with no weapon shown, IMO that's the time to indicate you have a weapon but not produce it... that scenario evolves into drawing the gun if the BGs keep closing, two on one (threat). I'm not shooting the guy at 15 feet just because he has a knife, but if he closes to ten knowing I have a gun on him we've reached last resort. The OP was in a parking lot late, where presumably there were decent sight lines and distances to work with, including backing while drawn, and hopefully getting something between you.... this notion that if it's time to draw it's time to fire, means waiting until the knife is danger close. No thank you. Firing before the knife is danger close is going to invite all sorts of second guessing.

I fear a more real world situation would involve more of an ambush than being walked up on.

 

[Nicole]

I suggest that you Google "Tueller Drill", study it and

[/QUOTE]

This +10000000000. Your "danger bubble" is much bigger than you think it is.

 

[Machete]

Came for the information (both good and bad), stayed for the pissing contest that developed!

 

[mbullism]

I suggest that you Google "Tueller Drill", study it and then enroll in an NRA Personal Protection in the Home course. It might change your mind on how close is too close! [Disclaimer: I'm an NRA Instructor who teaches that class, next one is later this month, but that isn't why I'm making the suggestion.]

I get that, and the point is valid...I was just using distances from previous posts to relate...change 10 feet to 75 feet, and 15 feet to 100 feet. My point is you're gonna look awfully stupid to a jury on that video tape when you produce a gun and immediately drop the guy with the knife at 60 feet because they didn't feel you had reached last resort. My point is also that showing the gun has value, imho, and the notion of "if its time to draw it's time to shoot" is missing an opportunity to de-escalate. The distances involved will likely be situational...

 

[Coyote33]

I'm currently in the beginning stages of obtaining my LTC and have been searching this forum and other websites on MA law regarding carrying, use of force, etc. and studying up as much on the laws as I can. One question that I haven't been able to get a clear answer to is how duty to retreat in a public space applies to drawing, but not using, your firearm. Example:

Bob has a LTC Class A-ALP. One night he is walking alone in a parking lot when he is approached aggressively by two men. One man draws a knife and yells at Bob to "hand over your wallet!". Bob draws his firearm, takes aim at the man and yells "stop or I'll shoot!". The two men turn around and take off running. Bob calls 911 to report the attempted armed robbery.

My question is: did Bob have a duty to retreat (try running away) from the two men first before drawing his firearm? Could he lose his LTC/be charged by the police with threatening/attempted assault for drawing but not shooting? Could the police or DA go as far as to say "you should have run first and/or you should have handed over your wallet"?

I'd say he was retreating when he was trying to walk away from them.

Why would you call the cops? ...

I was thinking about this the other night, before this thread was made. And was going back and forth with myself on if I'd call the cops if nothing escalated beyond them retreating and me carrying on with my night/day.

This. As a practical matter, if the bad guys run away, just leave and don't call anyone. You will not like the attention you receive. It's not like they will make any real effort to find the real bad guys. You'll simply present as the easiest target in their report.

Interesting. Bold added for emphasis, and something to ponder.

There are three options:

1. Call the cops, give them a fully accurate description to assist in making an arrest of any assialants
2. Call the cops, suffer memory loss and be unable to give a specific description
3. Don't call

#1 and #3 are the ones with the biggest legal risks.

Again, VERY interesting. Hmmmm.

No blood, no foul. They showed you their knife, you showed them your gun. End of story.

Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

Back when I took LFI-1, Ayoob said that the police generally assume that the first person to call them is the victim. In today's environment with cameras everywhere and your cellphone tracking you, I suggest that thinking you can walk away unseen is unrealistic.

I thought the same thing. This would be the best reason to place a call. Somebody maybe SAW YOU PULL OUT A GUN. Who knows if they saw the other guys.

I only read as far as page 1 of 3.