Do the police of a 'right' to check the SN on a firearm if you are stopped?

[doobie]

Basically what I said in the title. Do police have a 'right' to confiscate a firearm a person is carrying and check the serial number on the firearm? For example if I were driving and they asked if I had weapons and I told them I was carrying my pistol can they confiscate it/run the SN for the period I was being detained?

If so what is the RSA? Thanks.

 

[greycar]

Don't know what rights police have, but they checked this guys gun.
http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=196527&postcount=21

 

[Mass-diver]

I don't buy that cops in the above post where able to track the pistol. AFAIK there is not an instant process for tracking firearm serial numbers - i.e. they can't "run" your pistol while you wait, although as posted, they might try.

 

[Jose]

AFAIK there is not an instant process for tracking firearm serial numbers - i.e. they can't "run" your pistol while you wait.

Yes there is. They can call dispatch with the serial number and dispatch can run it in the FBI and ATF databases pretty quickly.

Here in Ohio police have the authority (it's not a right) to ask for and retain your firearms during an investigative stop outside your home. They are required to return the firearm to you at the conclusion of the stop and after September 9 they will be civilly liable if they do nor return the firearm in the same condition that you gave it to them.

BTW, I have been stopped by police a few times since I started carrying, and following our law I have notified them that I have a concealed handgun and a license to carry it. Only once I was requested to show the license and I have never been requested to show my gun.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

AFAIK there is not an instant process for tracking firearm serial numbers - i.e. they can't "run" your pistol while you wait

The database of stolen guns (NCIC) is easily checked - I even know of a couple that made their way home thanks to this database. The recovering agency may notify the reporting agency, but probably won't contact the rightful owner directly.

 

[drgrant]

I would be highly suspicious of any LEO asking to see a firearm's SN in a context which he really has no legitimate reason to do so. Unless the LEO has probable cause to believe that one is carrying a stolen firearm, they really have no valid reason to be conducting such a check. Further, this kind of thing is usually an aberration- You rarely hear of it happening to begin with.

All this aside, in the end game you likely will have little choice/recourse in the matter other than filing a complaint against the LEO who made you jump through flaming hoops for no legitimate reason. It'll likely get inserted into the nearest circular file, more than likely.

-Mike

 

[Trupo]

Basically what I said in the title. Do police have a 'right' to confiscate a firearm a person is carrying and check the serial number on the firearm? For example if I were driving and they asked if I had weapons and I told them I was carrying my pistol can they confiscate it/run the SN for the period I was being detained?.

Absolutely...

 

[Trupo]

I don't buy that cops in the above post where able to track the pistol. AFAIK there is not an instant process for tracking firearm serial numbers - i.e. they can't "run" your pistol while you wait, although as posted, they might try.

You are mis-informed, sir.

 

[doobie]

Absolutely...

What RSA gives them the right then?

 

[Trupo]

Pardon my ignorance...what is "RSA"???

 

[doobie]

Pardon my ignorance...what is "RSA"???

Revised Statutes Annotated. In non-legal terms, the laws that govern New Hampshire.

Or as I like to say, if there isn't an RSA against it, the people can do it.

 

[Trupo]

Well, that I could not quote to you. However, let's talk a little reality here though, you are stopped, and one way or another it comes out in your conversation with the officer that you are legally carrying a firearm. The officer then asks for your safety and his/hers that you hand over the weapon until the stop is completed, are you going to say NO? Cause if you do (right or wrong, playing a little devil's advocate here) you will probably find yourself surrounded with additional officers because the first officer called in that they were off with a subject with a firearm that refuses to turn it over. Ultimately you may win the war on this one if you push hard enough (through written complaints, ect.) but you will loose the battle. As a side note, however the officer comes in contact with the serial number on the weapon, he/she can run the serial number for a stolen check in the same manner that they run random license plates for a stolen check while driving around town.

 

[DickWanner]

Pardon my ignorance...what is "RSA"???

So you don't know what an RSA is, but you're going to say with 'absoluteness' that said officer and do said thing? Yeeeeaaa, about that...

 

[jdubois]

The officer then asks for your safety and his/hers that you hand over the weapon until the stop is completed, are you going to say NO?

No, you're not (RSA 594:3). But that law only allows them to take possession of and secure your weapon, not do a search on the S/N. I'm still looking, and I'm sure it's there, for an RSA which allows them to do reasonable searches for evidence based on probable cause.

 

[appraiser]

Is there an RSA that requires you to divulge your possession of a firearm during a traffic stop or other detention by police in NH?

 

[doobie]

The officer then asks for your safety and his/hers that you hand over the weapon until the stop is completed, are you going to say NO?

Acctually I have. I politely refused to give them my firearm when they asked. They countered with 'just keep my hands away from my side' (which they were as I had them crossed holding my shoulders and kept them that way until they were done talking to me).

Same also happened when I had a knife in my pocket instead of a firearm. They asked if I had any weapons. I said only my pocket knife in my pocket.

 

[doobie]

No, you're not (RSA 594:3). But that law only allows them to take possession of and secure your weapon, not do a search on the S/N. I'm still looking, and I'm sure it's there, for an RSA which allows them to do reasonable searches for evidence based on probable cause.

RSA 594:2 is what gives the ability to take possession and secure it in 594:3

A peace officer may stop any person abroad whom he has reason to suspect is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime, and may demand of him his name, address, business abroad and where he is going.

Is there an RSA that requires you to divulge your possession of a firearm during a traffic stop or other detention by police in NH?

There is no RSA that states you need to inform them that you are carrying, or that you have a permit. If asked, you could say no, but you are then lying to an officer.

 

[drgrant]

No, you're not (RSA 594:3). But that law only allows them to take possession of and secure your weapon, not do a search on the S/N. I'm still looking, and I'm sure it's there, for an RSA which allows them to do reasonable searches for evidence based on probable cause.

Yeah, but you missed the obvious problem- once the LEO has the firearm there is no "search" for the serial number, it's right there in front of him, the same way the number plate is on your car. The PD could likely argue that because the SN was in "plain sight" at that point, that it didn't constitute a search. On the other hand, you might have a better case if you had one of those revolvers where the SN is hidden by rubber grips, etc... since the LEO would have to take the gun apart to find the SN, that could probably be considered a search on its own; but on most guns you don't have to do that to get to the SN.

Not that I would ever do it, but I wonder if you could protect against a search by putting a piece of tape over the SN. It's not defacing the number, yet since the LEO would have to remove the piece of tape, he would then be shown to have "conducted a search" of the guy's property. OK, now were in angels on head of a pin territory...

-Mike

 

[doobie]

Not that I would ever do it, but I wonder if you could protect against a search by putting a piece of tape over the SN. It's not defacing the number, yet since the LEO would have to remove the piece of tape, he would then be shown to have "conducted a search" of the guy's property. OK, now were in angels on head of a pin territory...

-Mike

I was just thinking that as I read, but you'd need a tape that wouldn't affect the finish.

 

[appraiser]

Doobie is quicker than I in reading/researching. The only way they can take your weapon under RSA 594:3 is if they suspect you of committing a crime and are detaining you under 594:2.

That Ridley guy who was doing the open carry stuff in Manchester to prove a point hit the nail on the head. Unless you are suspected WITH PROBABLE CAUSE of having committed a crime you have the right to go about your business free from being stopped and questioned. Getting back to the linked example above about the employee at DHMC, his pickup truck, and the lack of mud flaps, is the lack of mud flaps a "crime" in NH?

 

[Trupo]

Yeah, but you missed the obvious problem- once the LEO has the firearm there is no "search" for the serial number, it's right there in front of him, the same way the number plate is on your car...

...On the other hand, you might have a better case if you had one of those revolvers where the SN is hidden by rubber grips, etc... since the LEO would have to take the gun apart to find the SN, that could probably be considered a search on its own; but on most guns you don't have to do that to get to the SN.
-Mike

I am going to continue to play devil's advocate. Even with a wheel gun, the officer could say they came accross the serial number when they opened the cylinder to unload the weapon to make it safe, they saw the serial number on the inside of the frame. Also, you instantly make ANYONE (cop or civilian) suspicious when you put a piece of tape over the serial number...thus giving the police officer grounds to peel the tape away and run the gun any which way they want.

 

[jdubois]

RSA 594:2 is what gives the ability to take possession and secure it in 594:3

Yes, of course. Police can't just stop you and ask for anything they want just because they feel like it.

Yeah, but you missed the obvious problem- once the LEO has the firearm there is no "search" for the serial number, it's right there in front of him, the same way the number plate is on your car.

The search is not in reading the serial number, but in sending that serial number off to be 'searched' in the database. Can they use your private information obtained by you following the law against you? Probably, as they'd have to have had probable cause to ask for the weapon in the first place.

 

[Nickle]

My take is that IF they have suffucuent cause to detain you, they have suffucient grounds to inquire if you have a firearm, and to make sure it's made safe. If in the process of normal handling, they can reasonably see the serial number (wothout DISASSEMBLY), it's a legal search.

That leaves reason to run the number. I'm thinking they may have to suspect it to be stolen.

Remember, all the times you see "suspicion", it means "reasonable suspicion" that a crime has been committed. They can run your plate, but a VIN check would seem to require a little more info.

Now, remember, IANAL, so when one of our esteemed counselors replies, I very well could be totally wrong on this.

 

[drgrant]

I am going to continue to play devil's advocate. Even with a wheel gun, the officer could say they came accross the serial number when they opened the cylinder to unload the weapon to make it safe, they saw the serial number on the inside of the frame.

There were some revolvers that do no have the SN there, particularly older models. (at least from what I've heard). In some cases you have to take the gun apart to get to the SN. On really old firearms the SN may be
in an oddball place.

Also, you instantly make ANYONE (cop or civilian) suspicious when you put a piece of tape over the serial number...thus giving the police officer grounds to peel the tape away and run the gun any which way they want.

Well, as I insinuated, this is where it gets hairy. Is a piece of tape probable cause for a warrantless search? On the other hand, the events leading up to this point are more critical. I'm not sure if temporary seizures of firearms in the interest of "officer safety" pass the 4th amendment sniff test. If they do, then there are liable to be lots of restrictions on what they can do with the firearm if PC isn't otherwise present.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

The search is not in reading the serial number, but in sending that serial number off to be 'searched' in the database. Can they use your private information obtained by you following the law against you? Probably, as they'd have to have had probable cause to ask for the weapon in the first place.

Well, that's what I was kind of getting at- I was unsure if there was a way for a LEO to perform a temporary seizure of a firearm that dodges 4th amendment issues. If PC is supposed to be required in all cases, and the LEO has real PC then such a search would be legal. It would not surprise me though if a lot of these temporary seizures are about an inch away from being illegal searches, but most of them get conducted because the person consents to them.

-Mike

 

[doobie]

Are there any holsters that make it hard/impossible for someone other than the wearer to remove the firearm? Like maybe a release that isn't on the holster.

 

[jdubois]

Well, that's what I was kind of getting at- I was unsure if there was a way for a LEO to perform a temporary seizure of a firearm that dodges 4th amendment issues. If PC is supposed to be required in all cases, and the LEO has real PC then such a search would be legal. It would not surprise me though if a lot of these temporary seizures are about an inch away from being illegal searches, but most of them get conducted because the person consents to them.

Yup, I think we're in the same place.