Deadly weapons and factory instruction manuals

[Optimistic Paranoid]

John Farnam's comments are always worth reading and thinking about. He seems to keep up a lively correspondence with lots of interesting people - other trainers, factory reps, etc.

11 Jan 08

Excellent comments from an Instructor:

"Virtually every fire extinguisher currently manufactured works exactly the same; the inexpensive one in my kitchen, and the professional model carried on fire trucks. They're all simple to operate, so there is actually some possibility ordinary people, in a panicked state, will be able to make them work in a beneficial way, and in time for it to do some good. They are designed to be used in an emergency, so they don't come with combination locks nor a tedious, six-step, sequence-critical procedure necessary to get them running!

Thank heaven some audacious gun-makers build handguns in this same spirit. Others display infinitely more dread for the life-saving device they themselves manufacture, than they do for life-threatening event it is created to stop!

We think the foregoing is funny, but, for example, how am I supposed to look upon the credibility and sincerity of a manufacturer of ostensibly defensive pistols who states in the very literature that is supplied with each copy of his product:

'Keep this pistol unloaded at all times... Keep this pistol inaccessible at all times... Never load this pistol at all, until just before you intend to shoot, and unload it immediately after shooting.....' ad nauseam?'

I get the distinct impression, they, like the politicians we all despise, couldn't care less about my life, caring instead only about insulating themselves from litigation.

God forbid I actually use this pistol for its intended purpose!"

Comment: It would be a good deal more helpful, and infinitely less disingenuous, if, in their instructional manuals, manufacturers frankly and openly discussed how to correctly carry and handle a continuously loaded pistol, how to shoot VCAs in a way that ends the fight quickly and permanently, authentic options for storing the pistol safely and yet in an adequate state of readiness, effectively interacting with the criminal/justice system in the aftermath of a defensive shooting, et al. That information would be genuinely helpful, but is all perpetually "subject-non-grata." Writers of instructional manuals prefer instead to hypocritically dance around the real issues.

Guns are dangerous! They have to be, or there would be scant point in ownership, much less in carrying one. Of course, "dangerous," is a relative term. However, WHEN FIGHTING FOR MY LIFE, THE ONLY KIND OF GUN I WANT IS ONE THAT IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS! The "extremely dangerous" gun I need at the critical moment is, of course, going to be "extremely dangerous" the rest of the day too, so I need to know how to carry, handle, and keep it correctly. That vital information should be supplied, in spades, by manufacturers, but rarely is.

A well-trained trigger finger, a clear mind, and a virtuous and courageous heart are as close to a "safety" as we're ever likely to get. Who are missing any of the above are well advised to pass on gun ownership!

/John


13 Jan 08

Comments on "Instructions for Use" manuals supplied with new pistols, from a friend with a large gun manufacturer:

"John, give us a break! Manuals that delicately skirt all the 'real,' intended use of manufactured products are not unique to our industry. In fact, if you want a good laugh, look at the ones that come with ladders, ATVs, even vacuum cleaners. You and I would be rolling in dough if we had pioneered the 'warning-label' business thirty years ago!

Until this industry finds a way to shield ourselves from predatory, frivolous, preposterous lawsuits, I don't see anything changing. Every year, we spend mortifying amounts of money dealing with idiot litigation. Most are dismissed. Some are settled. Only a minuscule few ever go to trial. But, in the lawsuit business, there isn't much monetary difference between cases that are 'won' or 'lost.' Either way, we have to pay an army of lawyers obscene fees, because all cases, even the most stupid, must be taken seriously.

Bubba or Bubbette buys one of our guns, dips it in Vaseline, sticks it up their ass, and pulls the trigger. Without fail, their 'estate' subsequently sues us, because we didn't specifically warn against that act in our manual! Again, we may be successful in getting the case laughed out of court, but it will cost us a fortune either way. We have dozens of these going at any one time!

In addition, we're obligated to actively lobby against reams of new, unbelievably-stupid, proposed gun laws, at every level of government. An example (where we lost!) is CA's new 'firing-pin-has-to-transfer-the-serial-number-to-fired-cases' law. CA, like NJ before it, has nonchalantly mandated a technology that does not exist. We have no idea if we will be able to comply, at any cost, and we're disinclined to even try. We may well have to stop selling guns in CA!

Oh, how I would love to include in our Instructions for Use Manual a chapter on how to properly carry loaded pistols and how use our pistols to fatally shoot, deader than shit, burglary suspects in the process of invading your home! But, you, better than most, know what kind of screwed-up legal system we have to live with, and, in the process, do our best to make a living, pay our bills, meet our payroll, and maybe even design new products, in our spare time!

If we ever decide to throw caution to the wind and start writing real manuals, you'll be the first one we'll call. In the interim, John, don't hold your breath!"

Comment: The United States is in the process of being de-industrialized. Over-regulated, over-snooped, over-taxed, over-litigated, and viciously vilified by politicians and the media alike, manufacturers are understandably throwing up their hands and moving operations off-shore, or closing their doors for good. Why is anyone surprised?

In another twenty years, we're all going to be sitting around a table trying to sell each other insurance, because no one will be making anything!

/John

 

[9000S]

They Should Unionize...

In addition, we're obligated to actively lobby against reams of new, unbelievably-stupid, proposed gun laws, at every level of government. An example (where we lost!) is CA new 'firing-pin-has-to-transfer-the-serial-number-to-fired-cases' law. CA, like NJ before it, has nonchalantly mandated a technology that does not exist. We have no idea if we will be able to comply, at any cost, and we're disinclined to even try. We may well have to stop selling guns in CA!

I can't wait to see what kinda shit hits the fan once firearm companies refuse to do business in CA. And I pray, that the Big Boys will follow suit. Glock, S&W, Springfield, and many others STI/SVI are not doing business nor is Barrett. I pray that the gun manufacturers can unite on this and make an example of CA. All it takes is one weasel to try and cash in on it. This will really be a case of principle vs profit. And sadly I fear I know the answer... I hope I am shocked and amazed.

 

[Scrivener]

Printing all that surplusage in a manual is one thing. Putting it on the GUN (Ruger) is ridiculous.

 

[Arioch]

I believe that Barrett has already stopped doing business with government agencies in CA.

In addition, we're obligated to actively lobby against reams of new, unbelievably-stupid, proposed gun laws, at every level of government. An example (where we lost!) is CA new 'firing-pin-has-to-transfer-the-serial-number-to-fired-cases' law. CA, like NJ before it, has nonchalantly mandated a technology that does not exist. We have no idea if we will be able to comply, at any cost, and we're disinclined to even try. We may well have to stop selling guns in CA!

I can't wait to see what kinda shit hits the fan once firearm companies refuse to do business in CA. And I pray, that the Big Boys will follow suit. Glock, S&W, Springfield, and many others STI/SVI are not doing business nor is Barrett. I pray that the gun manufacturers can unite on this and make an example of CA. All it takes is one weasel to try and cash in on it. This will really be a case of principle vs profit. And sadly I fear I know the answer... I hope I am shocked and amazed.

 

[strangenh]

Printing all that surplusage in a manual is one thing. Putting it on the GUN (Ruger) is ridiculous.

I suppose it lets them stand before a jury, point at the weapon and say, "but it is written right here on the gun!" the same way warnings are now on ladders.

Wait until it's on the gun in English, Spanish, French, and German, with international standard symbols.

"Why, yes, the new Ruger SR49 has a 12" slide, but we needed it for the disclaimers. What, you wanted us to write 'continued on next gun' instead?"

 

[Rcharnitsk]

Disclaimers are getting ridiculous in general, Hot Coffee cups from Dunkin and the rest now have to have a caution for it being HOT, come on common sense tells you you ordered a hot coffee its going to be hot. No I guess not companies got sued because some one spilled hot coffee and didn't know it was going to be hot. When does it come to the point where people will not be able to open a lawsuit for anything and everything with out justification.

 

[csharpdev]

"Why, yes, the new Ruger SR49 has a 12" slide, but we needed it for the disclaimers. What, you wanted us to write 'continued on next gun' instead?"

"I'm sorry sir, the Ruger SR49 is only sold in pairs"

 

[Scrivener]

Disclaimers are getting ridiculous in general, Hot Coffee cups from Dunkin and the rest now have to have a caution for it being HOT, come on common sense tells you you ordered a hot coffee its going to be hot. No I guess not companies got sued because some one spilled hot coffee and didn't know it was going to be hot. When does it come to the point where people will not be able to open a lawsuit for anything and everything with out justification.

Drivel.

For those who would rather learn the FACTS of the McDonald's coffee case instead of internet BS, go here:

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

 

[drgrant]

Printing all that surplusage in a manual is one thing. Putting it on the GUN (Ruger) is ridiculous.

+1... Ruger is obnoxious, there is practically a "promise not to sue
ruger" letter printed on the side of their guns. I also hate the
S+W markings, especially on obvious things like 1911s......

"WARNING: CAPABLE OF FIRING WITH THE MAGAZINE REMOVED"

Well, whoda thunk it! A 1911 that can fire with the magazine removed.
Oh wait, that's not any different than the other 99.9% of them out there!

-Mike

 

[Rcharnitsk]

I missed were I mentioned the McDonald's case. I was more referring to all the subsequent lawsuits that have occurred since then causing restaurants to require cup manufactures to place the warning on all hot cups that are printed. I know of this because I was a defendant in one of these frivolous lawsuits, I had to pay for a lawyer to defend my business, while the person suing they didn't have to come up with a dime because their lawyer was going to take it out of the settlement from my insurance company, So i had to pay higher insurance rates just to save money on a frivolous law suit because someone saw on the news they could file a lawsuit over hot coffee. If you want to see how ridiculous warning labels have gotten http://www.wackywarnings.com/

 

[csharpdev]

+1... Ruger is obnoxious, there is practically a "promise not to sue
ruger" letter printed on the side of their guns. I also hate the
S+W markings, especially on obvious things like 1911s......

"WARNING: CAPABLE OF FIRING WITH THE MAGAZINE REMOVED"

Well, whoda thunk it! A 1911 that can fire with the magazine removed.
Oh wait, that's not any different than the other 99.9% of them out there!

-Mike

I always assumed a gun could fire with it's magazine removed until I heard people complaining about S&W's having magazine disconnects. I tried it and sure enough it won't fire. The gun should have a warning that reads "WARNING: Gun will fail to operate if magazine removed"

 

[MaverickNH]

I suppose it lets them stand before a jury, point at the weapon and say, "but it is written right here on the gun!" the same way warnings are now on ladders.

Wait until it's on the gun in English, Spanish, French, and German, with international standard symbols.

"Why, yes, the new Ruger SR49 has a 12" slide, but we needed it for the disclaimers. What, you wanted us to write 'continued on next gun' instead?"

If they could put those warnings in raised print on the frontstrap and backstrap, at least we could get a better grip on safety.

 

[KMaurer]

Drivel.

For those who would rather learn the FACTS of the McDonald's coffee case instead of internet BS, go here:

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

Well, those are the "facts" according to the Association of American Trial Lawyers (Formerly the National Association of Claimants Compensation Attorneys, but now calling themselves the American Association for Justice), the people who tend to get rich off this sort of thing. Here's another set of "facts" from an admittedly different perspective. Note that while 185° coffee (or water or cocoa) will cause 3rd degree burns if spilled on skin, your supposed to sip it, not pour in on your body. While a lot of places serve coffee at something like 140°, places known for their coffee (e.g., Starbuck's, McDonald's) server theirs at 170°-190°, the temperature that most people prefer. High-end home machines also serve coffee at this temperature, while the inexpensive ones are around 140°. Also, 700 reported burns from coffee over a decade or so sounds like a lot until your consider that McDonald's sells literally billions of cups. That's something on the order of one burn for every 24 million cups. According to BATFE figures, American firearms manufacturers produced roughly 3.5M firearms of all types in 2005. Would anybody complain if the incident of serious (not necessarily fatal) firearms accidents/negligence were to be 1 every 6½ to 7 years? Would that rate justify holding manufacturers liable for all those accidents or forcing them to make idiot proof guns?

Ken

 

[Scrivener]

Well, those are the "facts" according to the Association of American Trial Lawyers [sic] (Formerly the National Association of Claimants Compensation Attorneys, but now calling themselves the American Association for Justice), the people who tend to get rich off this sort of thing. Here's another set of "facts" from an admittedly different perspective. Note that while 185° coffee (or water or cocoa) will cause 3rd degree burns if spilled on skin, your supposed to sip it, not pour in on your body. While a lot of places serve coffee at something like 140°, places known for their coffee (e.g., Starbuck's, McDonald's) server theirs at 170°-190°, the temperature that most people prefer. High-end home machines also serve coffee at this temperature, while the inexpensive ones are around 140°. Also, 700 reported burns from coffee over a decade or so sounds like a lot until your consider that McDonald's sells literally billions of cups. That's something on the order of one burn for every 24 million cups. According to BATFE figures, American firearms manufacturers produced roughly 3.5M firearms of all types in 2005. Would anybody complain if the incident of serious (not necessarily fatal) firearms accidents/negligence were to be 1 every 6½ to 7 years? Would that rate justify holding manufacturers liable for all those accidents or forcing them to make idiot proof guns?

Wholly absent from this analysis are the following facts:

1. HOME coffee makers are intended to make coffee consumed at HOME, oddly enough.

2. McDonalds ignored the fact that its own research showed its customers drank its coffee while driving; not at their destination.

3. McDonalds refused to pay even the mere medical costs for the 3rd degree burns, thus creating the lawsuit now complained of.

No doubt Ken thinks Ford's decision to save $2.75/car by not putting check valves in Pinto filler necks was an intelligent economic analysis and those charred by the consequences thereof constitute "acceptable losses."

 

[icyclefar]

I always assumed a gun could fire with it's magazine removed until I heard people complaining about S&W's having magazine disconnects. I tried it and sure enough it won't fire. The gun should have a warning that reads "WARNING: Gun will fail to operate if magazine removed"

*or not completely seated

+1000

I try to avoid those at all costs!

 

[Coyote33]

Printing all that surplusage in a manual is one thing. Putting it on the GUN (Ruger) is ridiculous.

Which info is on which Ruger?

I know tampering with a serial number is illegal. I know a lot of people do customizing, including etching and carving things in the metal. Is there any law against buffing off any writing which is NOT a serial number?